Ep. 41: Babies settle better with Merineo Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 41: Babies settle better with Merineo

In this episode of The WTiN Podcast, we talk to Claire Hausler, founder of Merineo – an Australian company best known for its merino wool swaddling bags.

Jessica Owen
Music, hello. My name is Jessica Owen, and I am the Deputy digital editor at WTiN, and this is the WTiN podcast. You 2020. Has been a challenging year for everyone so far. Therefore, for this series, I'll be exploring the innovative ways in which companies are using Textiles and Apparel to improve our health and well being. This week, I'm joined by Claire Hausler, who is the founder of Mourinho, an Australian company best known for its merino wool swaddling bags. Claire talks about growing up on a wool growing farm, developing the swaddling bag with a hospital, and how the product can help babies sleep better while caring for their skin and helping them to grow you.

Music. Well, hello, Claire. Lovely to speak with you today. How are you? How is everything there in Australia? 

Claire Hausler
Hi, Jessica, everything is as good as it can be, really in a Coronavirus, yeah. Down in Melbourne, we're in a stage four lockdown, and haven't been able to move more than five kilometers from our home since July. So that's, that's how we are, goodness,

Jessica Owen
right? Is there any sort of signs of it lifting, or is it the winter season over there, or

Claire Hausler
what it's so we've just come out of winter, moving into summer, and in Melbourne, the Melbourne is the only city, or the only location that's been in a in a stage four lockdown. And I think what the local governments trying to do is possibly eradicate the Coronavirus. So we've only had today, I think there was only, like 14 cases in the day before there was seven or eight. So the looking at getting it down, I mean, it always seems to zero in order to let us out or to let us move again. Yeah.

Jessica Owen
I mean, to be fair, that does make sense. So within that, then can people, well, people from outside Melbourne, they can't come into the city. Is that? Right?

Claire Hausler
No, I don't think so. I think they could come in if they had a medical appointment or something of that nature. But, yeah, generally, generally, no. And of course, we can't leave Melbourne unless we've got a, you know, a formal reason, like a work related reason, and which pertains to an essential service or caring for a family member, something like that.

Jessica Owen
Okay, right? Oh gosh. Well, fingers crossed. It'll start, it'll start improving soon. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, as before we came on this call, I mentioned that me in the UK up, my area's got into lockdown as well. But I think that's just how it's going to be for the near future, unfortunately. But yeah, hey, ho, yeah. So today, then I asked you on this podcast because you were the founder of a company called Marino. So before we get into that and talking about the brand and how it's set up and everything, do you mind just telling me about yourself and your own background? Sure. So

Claire Hausler
I grew up on a farm in western Victoria, about three hours west of Melbourne, and on the farm, my family grows sheep for wool, and the type of wool they grow is fine wool, and for as long as I can remember, that's what they've been doing. I have three brothers, and they all farm together with my parents. And yeah, it's, it's, I come from a very passionate, wool, growing family, although I went off to uni when I left home at 18 or 19, I think, and studied commerce and law and became a lawyer and joined the corporate world, and traveled a little in Sydney, Melbourne and Milan and London, and worked in corporate environments and started Mourinho, which I think you'll question me more about shortly, about four years ago. So that's sort of been my background, that corporate legal background, I suppose. Gosh, right.

Jessica Owen
And so your family, then you said, still growing wool and that are they still doing that to this day? Then,

Claire Hausler
yes, yes, yeah, right, yeah. So merino sheep is what they is the type of breed of sheep that they they grow and, yeah, they shear the sheep every year, once a year, and the wool is auctioned or sold through contracts to wool and mills, mainly in Italy and some in China. Basically, all of the wool that's grown in Australia is goes offshore to be processed,

Jessica Owen
right? Okay, and so you then went off to do law, and now you've got the company. Me, Mourinho, so what brought you, sort of almost full circle?

Claire Hausler
Well, I guess, in being caught up in the corporate world, I didn't have time to stop and think about anything. It was, go, go, go, go, go, busy, busy, busy. And then I had a my husband and I had a child four years ago, and although it was an extraordinarily busy time, I did actually have time to stop and think and dream, I suppose, about doing different things or new things. And I'd always had this love of fine wool coming off a farm. And when Jack was born, I started looking at some of the research, which is some amazing research that's been done by Australian wool innovation around the benefits of using wool on babies. And so I started thinking, Well, that's all great, but you know, how do you show parents that wool is better for their babies? And I started thinking further like, Where does the wool actually go to the the actual wool that my family sell, that the that type of wool, the quality of wool, why don't we? Where is it? Because it's certainly not here. And, well, it doesn't, it's not something that's easy to find in a fabric here in Australia. Where is it, and how can I bring it back? And so that sort of morphed into discussions with hospitals, because I started to think, Well, where are where do you find newborn babies in in mass, and it's really in in hospitals. And there was a particular hospital that was interested in merino wool and its health benefits and the research. And one thing led to another, and I started working with them to develop or design a swaddling bag for babies. The nurses or the midwives at this hospital were very much about swaddling babies because they believed, through their experience, that that was the best way to settle a baby. And when I started taking them through the research, although some of these nurses already had some knowledge about the benefits, the sleep benefits of Merino wool. But when we started talking about babies, and I started going through the research with them, you know, we agreed that creating a product from 100% superfine merino wool would be a great thing to get babies to quickly go to sleep in. So whilst we were doing prototypes and working with the hospital, I was busy contacting different mills around the world and collecting samples and trying to find something that had that was made from I was sort of looking around 17 and a half micron merino wool, but also something that was a robust construction that wasn't just going to stretch and sort of not fall apart, but get all saggy. If it was used to wrap a baby in and it had to go through a washing machine and come out, you know, really, you know, looking like new on the other side of the wash it had to be able to deal, be able to put up with a busy mum and her schedule and still come out at the other end looking like a premium product. So as you can probably imagine, the work that went into develop, developing that, you know, those prototypes and those first samples was quite significant, and it probably took around, I'd say, about eight, nine months to come up with a, you know, the first final sample, if you'd like to call it that. And so, I mean,

Jessica Owen
were you doing all of this alongside your other job? Or am I assuming that you're on maternity leave at this time or what? Yeah,

Claire Hausler
so I was on maternity leave, and then I did go back to work for a couple of years and then resign from work. But the business was more about me being the puppeteer, I suppose, and using contractors and different people to do all these different things. So it didn't, at that point require my full time attention. So I had the, of course, the mill making the fabric. I had a cutter to cut it. I had sewers or makers to do the sewing. Graphic designers for the for the branding and packaging. Was someone different. And so it was all about piecing it all together and delivering it, I suppose, or selling it. And yeah. So I didn't actually, yeah. So I was in, I was back at work, but yeah, part time and being a full time mum as well, and also running, trying to run a business, yeah,

Jessica Owen
quite a busy life. Then, by the sounds of it, it was tell me about the wall then and where you eventually decided to source it from. I mean, did you ever stop and think about going back to your family's farm and asking them? Or, how did it all how does the supply chain look?

Claire Hausler
Um. Look, it's a very, I mean, as you would would know, it's a very secretive industry, the textile industry, as to where people are sourcing their fabrics from. And I did find that a massive challenge when I started out. And fortunately, I had some assistance from someone in the industry who was very, is very well connected to different mills and had an enormous, or has an enormous amount of knowledge about the sort of fabric or the the fabric construction that I should be using for a baby sleeping bag. So I certainly owe him a lot of accolades, or, you know, huge thanks in the whole process. But I did go to talk to my parents on the family. I talked to wool agents, wool brokers, wool mark, Australian wool innovation. And it just amounted to collecting different fabric samples, and I shared them with the hospital. And we finally arrived at, you know, one, a particular fabric which I sourced from Italy. And it happens to be that my family have a contract with this particular mill and sell directly to them. So it's kind of nice that there's there's this circular movement of the wool, I suppose that in that it goes from the family farm to Italy and back here again, although there's no guarantee that the actual fabric I'm purchasing is, is does, in fact, come off my parents farm. But, you know, there's a fair chance it does.

Jessica Owen
Oh, that's really nice, actually, that you've got this sort of link and, and I imagine when you went off to do law you had no idea that you'd probably come back and do all of this. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it is nice. And so you started the brand Mourinho, then with this waddling bag, bag for babies. Do you mind just telling me a bit more about this then? So I think when I looked on your website, there's quite a few benefits. So it can help with their skin, it can help them to sleep better, even gain weight. So I mean, how does this all work?

Claire Hausler
I suppose there's two parts of the swaddling bag. It's called a Merino because we wanted to come up with a unique name, because it is a unique product. There is nothing else like it in the world. But it's the swaddling component which helps babies sleep, and it's also the wool fabric that has the health benefits. So those two combined are what make it a unique and special product for babies, which had appeal to the hospital. So the particular benefits are, the pertain to wool are, it is breathable, which is good for babies, because it means babies less clammy in wool. And there's all different research around why wool is naturally breathable, but it's to do with wools ability to absorb moisture vapor, and it allows it to evaporate, which makes the wearer feel less clingy. It's more comfortable than synthetics because it conducts heat away from the skin and it there's research to show that it can move 25% more moisture away from your skin compared to other fabrics. So this whole piece around baby feeling less clammy is, is a big part of it. Another, there was some research done, actually in the UK, was back in the 80s, about babies putting on weight in wool. And in that study, they picked out 34 very low birth weight babies, and they compared their weight gain each day when they were nursed on either lambs wool or cotton sheets, and the results were such that, on average, the wool group put on about 22 grams a day, whereas the cotton babies put on about 18 grams a day. So this, and the rationale, or the thinking behind this, is that will help soothe or settle the baby, and therefore their energy is not expended, kicking and crying, and you know, moving around, that the energy is conserved, and they put on weight. And then there's been some more recent research done by Australian wool innovation around wool, superfine merino wool, 17.5 micron merino wool, which is the wool that I use, or we use, being helpful for children with eczema in that it reduces child eczema. In Australia, there's around, or there's up to 28% of children suffer from eczema, and this study showed that when children wore superfine merino wool, it actually help reduce the severity of eczema, and incidentally, when they return to wearing cotton, the it actually triggered the eczema again, or exacerbated the eczema. So that's, you know, another one of the benefits, and I suppose the another one, is that wool is naturally fire resistant, and the reason for that is. Wool is naturally high in nitrogen and water content, so it has a it carries a low fire hazard warning, which, you know, all sleepwear in Australia and probably the UK too, is required to be fire tested. And, you know, carry a warning to parents, just to ensure that they don't, you know, put their baby next to anything, any hot surface, like an open fire or something like that, or get too close to it. So there's that, you know, there's that benefit as well around the, you know, the natural fire will being naturally fire resistant. But the the biggest benefit I feel to the hospital was the touch and the feel of the wool we had to pick, or, you know, they wanted me to pick out of all the samples. And we did, fortunately, find such a fabric that was really, really soft and silky, and it feels beautiful next to skin. And the nurses there were just amazed, you know, how beautiful it felt so and that was, you know, a big part of the criteria. And I'm sure when a baby feels that softball, they probably, you know, snuggle into it, and it does help them settle. Well,

Jessica Owen
I was just gonna say, like, I guess, all those sort of qualities that you've just listed off there. I mean, primarily there to help the baby, but I imagine, actually, it's putting the parents minds at ease as well. I mean, I imagine, I mean, I'm not a mother myself, so I don't really know, but I imagine that, especially first time, moms are probably very worried about different things, and they just want the best possible products for their baby. And I imagine just knowing that it's safe, knowing that its skins looked after, knowing that it feels snuggly, and, you know, comfortable all these things actually just make it such a lovely product and something that mothers really probably want to go out there and buy.

Claire Hausler
Yeah, I mean, you're exactly right about the sleep part of it, in that the biggest thing that any mother goes through, or, you know, any parent, during those first few weeks of a child's life is the sleep deprivation. You're up all night feeding and all that sort of thing. So if baby can settle that even 10 minutes quicker, it just makes such a big difference. And if baby can sleep that little bit longer, it makes such a big difference. And if baby's putting on weight, you know, as it should, or rapidly, then it just helps mum, mum's mind, or dad's mind, it just, it just helps them feel more at ease that the baby's developing as it as it should. But certainly with the whole premise around this, around using Woolies also around the sleep of the mother, and sleep deprivation is linked to postnatal depression. So I like to think that if a baby is sleeping well, in a Merino or anything actually, then that would reduce the risk of mum suffering from postnatal depression,

Jessica Owen
right? Okay, that's interesting to know. And so yeah, it's just both, both baby and mum and wealth father as well. Feel like fathers usually get missed out, but everyone's quality of life just seems to improve if you can do just little things like this. So that's great.

Claire Hausler
I was gonna say when we did the pilot program at the hospital, one of the findings in the pilot program that the because, as part of that, we parents were asked to report back regularly through surveys about how their baby was sleeping and how they found the product in terms of its size, its functional. You know how functional it was, its washability, and it was fantastic to see that the majority of survey respondents came back and said that their baby settled better, you know, Merino as compared to similar sleep sleeping bag products. So, you know, it really helped that really cemented it with the hospital, because they then felt okay. Well, the swaddling and the wool is working, and that led to a supply arrangement with the hospital where I created a with their assistance. Of course, this the swaddling bag in their corporate colors, with some embroidery on the breast, and was all packaged up nicely, and every newborn baby that was born at their hospital received one of these products. And it also meant that I attended the antenatal classes and did a demonstration to the mothers and the fathers about how to use the product and why they should use wool on their babies. So that was a really big educational piece for me, and really important at that time around educating parents about the benefits of of wool.

Jessica Owen
And do you know what's funny, really, is that, I mean, if you were to look many, many years back, I think even Well, I say many. To go back to my mum's generation, maybe who she's in her 50s. Now, I think my grandparents were used wool blankets and things like that on them. And then when you maybe look at generations now, you probably look at, I don't know, muslin cloths, cotton, it's more synthetics, isn't it? So it's funny how there's that trend to go back to more traditional fabrics. Again, it's, I don't know, I That's the impression I get anyway, that we're sort of going back to these things that work really well decades ago. And we're thinking, Well, why change it? If it works,

Claire Hausler
you're exactly right. And the other thing is that the wool has changed so much in the, I guess, five or six decades. So back in and I've got some two little statistics here for you back in 1991 so to start with, Australia produces over 90% of the world's fine apparel wall now back in 1991 only 11% of Australia's wool produced was less than 19 microns. So when we talk about merino wool, or any type of wool, we measure its quality in terms of the micron. And there's some other measurements as well, but it's primarily the micron of the wool which is the diameter of the each individual fiber of the wool. So the human hair is about 60 micron. So if, if we go back to that stat, back in 91 only 11% was less than 19 micron. Now in Australia, 50, 55% is less than 19 micron. So. So what I'm saying is you've got this huge shift in the consumption of the quality of wool. So back years ago, people were using a more coarse wool in blankets and those sorts of things. But now, because of the techno technology in Knitting Mills, in machinery and how yarn is produced and how it's all knitted, you can get a much more a beautiful quality fabric, a beautiful, beautiful wool. And I think to your point, because we're now seeing this sustainable movement, and we're seeing this shift, a global shift towards away from single use clothing back into these traditional clothes, pieces of fabric, but that have been technologically accelerated. I suppose we we are seeing a thing you know, which is great, greater demand for these, for these natural products.

Jessica Owen
And I guess as well, what goes with that is, like you said, the fabrics that you're working with are incredibly soft and they just feel lovely. I guess years ago, wool is very scratchy, and I think it had maybe a bad rep. And actually that's changed nowadays as

Claire Hausler
well, exactly. I mean my old school jumper, you know, I don't mean to criticize our state government or anything, but, oh, even for it was terrible. It was so itchy. It was horrible. I and as a result, I didn't even wear wool for years and years. And then I started looking, you know, when Jack was born, going through this whole motion of, where does this good will go? What's happened to it? How can we bring it back to Australia and show people that it is a beautifully soft fiber? And when I went to all these antenatal classes at the hospital and showed all these mums and dads the fabric, and I would pass a swaddling bag around, and they'd all touch it and feel it and look at each other, it was, it was the most satisfying thing I have probably done in the entire life of Mourinho, because they all looked at each other and said, and they looked at me, is it really wool? Is this really wool? This is so soft, and they just look at me with just in wonder. I mean, it was quite an incredible and a very encouraging time for me attending those classes.

Jessica Owen
Do you mind just telling me a bit more about this hospital trial, actually. I mean, you were working with the hospital anyway, but how did you get people involved? I mean, how many people and their babies took part in this? And what was the process sort of like, yeah. So

Claire Hausler
the way we approached it was that the hospital would identify babies that were normal birth weight born without any complications. And we tried to pick second babies or third or fourth babies from the mother, because we were conscious that first borns this, you know, it's a very anxious time for mothers, so we wanted mothers that might have not the time, I shouldn't say that, but so we selected. Throughout that process, it took about, I think probably two or three months, and we selected, I think it was around 20 mothers, so very small pool of mothers. And. I think there were about three surveys throughout the course of using it, so one at sort of the first week, and then another at when the baby was one month and another when baby was two months old, or might have been three months old. And we asked questions around how it washed in the wash, because there's this other preconception that will you have to dry clean it, or it shrinks. So we wanted to, I guess, prove or show that it didn't shrink, which was what the specifications of the fabric said anyway. And we also wanted to make sure that it fitted properly, because it was a unique product. There was nothing else like it out there. And we also wanted to make sure that if parents used it, they kept using it, and if they'd stopped, you know, why did they stop? But, you know, we found that the majority continued to they used it, you know, across that sort of two to three month period, and they gave feedback through the surveys during that period, it's an informal it wasn't a clinical trial as such, like a problem, you know, where you need 1000 babies, it was an informal pilot program run through the hospital, right?

Jessica Owen
Okay, and so the feedback then, I mean, you've said already that people are amazed that this fabric was actually wool and not something else. And clearly some babies have been doing well, they've really liked it, and the parents have approved. But I mean, what has the rest of the feedback been? Like any other sort of outcomes that maybe you weren't expecting or,

Claire Hausler
well, I guess I really wasn't expecting them to say that their baby slept or settled better in it than any other comparable sleep product. That was a shock. It was, it was a surprise. Was a lovely surprise, but there was a there were about 20 odd questions, and the other, I mean, I was surprised. The temperature of the room we had parents let us know the fluctuations of the room temperature throughout day and night, and I was surprised that most parents have central heating, and so what that meant is that they didn't need to layer up baby or use extra bedding to keep baby warm, or conversely, take bedding off and to keep baby cool. It seemed most parents kept their homes that are around sort of anything from sort of 1819, 20 degrees, which when you're creating baby sleeping bags, particularly it's those temperature things are very important, and how you guide parents, I suppose, as to what layers they should dress their baby in under or when they are sleeping in a sleeping bag. So it was just interesting that the use of central heating, very surprising.

Jessica Owen
Okay, and you know what it's, it's, it sounds really silly, but obviously, like I said, I don't have a baby, but you forget that they can't talk and tell you if they're hot or cold. So I forget that it is up to the parents to decide for them how many layers they should be wearing. Do they feel comfortable? I mean, that's quite a lot of responsibility, really. And that babies as well, like the younger they are they, I guess they probably don't know how to, well, how to cool themselves down, like we would know to just push a blanket down and give us some more breathing space, but they don't even know how to do that. So, yeah, it's really interesting,

Claire Hausler
yeah. And as part of that, we I then developed a new product made out of a 17.5 micron super fine Merino mesh, which I think is the it's the first baby sleeping bag I can find it on earth that's been made from such a fiber. But it's because of the high breathability it get. It for the warmer climates in Australia, like up around Queensland, where we seem to sell a lot of those it, it just gives that parent gives, gives parents, I think, an added layer of confidence, or that, you know, baby's not going to get too hot because of this, the breathability of the mesh fabric

Jessica Owen
the company now, then you've been running for, I think you said, four years. So you've got this swaddling bag, and that's what you started out with, and you've got this other product that you just mentioned. Where is the company at now? Then are you looking to develop anything else?

Claire Hausler
So since the swaddling bag, we needed to design or develop something for babies to grow into from that from the after zero to two months or three months. So the next product up is a it's called an arms in or out baby sleeping bag. So sometimes babies like to be have their arms in and swaddled close to them, but they also have to have their arms out. Out or free from a sleeping bag at a certain point, once they can roll over. So the design of so I should take a step back with any of these woolen products, because wool is a premium fabric, you have to come up with something that's a little bit that makes the product more versatile or functional, or has it has increased longevity or usability compared to the synthetic or the cotton products. So therefore, with this next one up, it's because of the press studs on the armholes. It means it has that baby can wear it for a long time, because baby can sleep in it swaddled, and then eventually baby the armholes can be opened up, and baby can put the arms out. So that was that product. And then the next one up was, again, a press stud on the arm, both arm holes that allowing, as baby grows, for the press stud to be undone so the baby can wear it up to two years of age. So there's those two products. And then I start people started asking, Well, why don't you have singlets in this next to skin wear? Because of the it being superfine Merino or 17.5 micron merino wool being shown to reduce child eczema. So I started to see a demand for that, and then has developed since then, singlets and leggings and long sleeve tops. So that's where it's at at the moment. And then the next step, I think your question was around, well, where to from here? The next step is to I'm thinking or looking at a couple of different things, but sleepwear, what sort of put me off thus far is the cost of fire testing the sleepwear. In order to get the labels, the mandatory labels on, you actually have to go and burn products at a laboratory and pay a lot of money for it. So I've sort of, you know, it's a big investment to have all your sleep where in different woolen fibers fire tested. So I'm thinking maybe of going down that path. I've also got some sampling at the moment, some baby wraps made from Merino like, just when I say baby wraps, like the muslin wraps, but made from merino wool. And I'm also looking at a cotton outer on some of the sleeping bags, which will enable me to do some eco friendly printing, or using Eco Friendly dyes, I should say on the outside, because printing on wool in Australia is cost prohibitive, and so in order to get printing done on the wool, I would have to get that done offshore. And at the moment, the cost and the the minimum orders are sort of out of my slightly out of my reach. So I suppose where I'm wanting to take the business is to give it greater appeal, mainstream appeal, by having these designs on the exterior of the sleeping bags and to increase the footprint in the retail, in retail outlets across mainstream Australia and, you know, ultimately, hopefully internationally, down the track.

Jessica Owen
Well, I mean, that sounds like you've got a nice plan there anyway. And I mean, would you ever consider making things for the parents as well that they're not missing out?

Claire Hausler
It's funny, I get asked so often, can you make this, or can you make that? And I think, oh, gosh, the for the fabric I'm using, that's going to use about three meters of fabric, and the fabric is going to cost probably 100 Australian dollars. And, you know, and suddenly you're sort of looking at a, you know, two, $300 garment, and you sort of think, Oh, I just don't think people in Australia will pay that price for a lovely nightie or a pair of pajamas or a nice t shirt or something. But, yeah, I mean, I'd love to, but it's just at the moment, it's also try. I'm trying to keep my SKUs or my products numbers down to a manageable level, because I do have this tendency to go off on a tangent and suddenly start thinking, I'll produce wool and raincoats, which was something I was interested in a couple of years ago. And then I realized, because there's this whole, I don't know if you know about it, but there's this whole range of fabrics you can buy that are actually they spin the fibers really tight and knit them really closely together, and it creates a waterproof membrane. And I thought, oh, wouldn't it be great to do children's raincoats in this and then I started costing it out. And I'm thinking a parent is not going to pay 200 Australian dollars, which would be, I guess, 100 British pounds to have their child wear a woolen raincoat for over a few rainy days in in winter. So,

Jessica Owen
yeah, I guess that's a problem. Like there's just, when you start out, there's so many things, and you get really excited, and you think you could do this, and then you've just got to rein it in. Think what's realistic and what's people actually going to buy, because what might seem really interesting and cool to you might not to anyone else. So you've got to think about these things. Yeah, and also, I guess, with children's way, you've got the added problem of they grow out of things so quickly, so you're probably not going to spend tons of money, because they might not be able to wear it for too long. 

Claire Hausler
You know, you've brought up a point which I hadn't even thought of in my preparation for this podcast. But with the met with the mesh, one of the reasons I chose that fabric, in addition to its breathability, was it stretches to over 100% and then it returns to it so it has good recovery. It returns to its original shape, whereas most other fabrics and fibers that you buy, you can't get that stretch ability. And therefore, with that huge stretch ability, it does mean kids can wear it, or it can be worn for more easily or for longer by a growing child, as compared to a more sturdy fabric.

Jessica Owen
Oh, that's quite interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. Well, Claire, I think we're sort of coming to the end now, unfortunately. But I mean, the final question that I wanted to ask you, that I've been asking everyone in this series is, what do you personally do to sort of look after your own health and well being? Oh,

Claire Hausler
thank you, Jessica. It's a nice question to ask and to think about at the moment, because really, there's not much time in between being a full time mum and running a business and all of that. But what I do like to do is garden. Maybe it's the farming DNA coming out in me, but we're lucky in Australia. We do live on fairly large blocks in the cities, and so there is room for a garden. So at the moment, we've got broad beans. So we had broad beans for dinner tonight. I grow lettuces, carrots, beetroot, rhubarb, which is sort of like a weed here, and potatoes, so that's I love the feel of dirt, and even the weeding and just planting and growing things and spending time with Jack, who's, who's now turned five, but I love showing him and the garden, and, you know, planting things with him and watching things grow. It's, it's really, it's wonderful to be, to be out of the office, I've got to say, and to be living in nature. It really is,

Jessica Owen
yeah, and all that fresh air that's got to be good for you. Oh yeah, yeah. Well, Claire, I mean, it's been really lovely to speak with you today, and I'm glad we finally got to do this, because to anyone listening, I really did muck up the time zones. Clearly, that's not my strong point. So yeah, I mean, it's been great to learn about Merino and hopefully, well, I wish you all the luck with the brand and developing it further. Thank you. 

Claire Hausler
Thank you very much, Jessica, it's really kind of you to interview me. Thank you.