Ep. 42: Lumiton’s apparel uses light to enhance performance and health Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 42: Lumiton’s apparel uses light to enhance performance and health

In this episode of The WTiN Podcast, we talk to Gates Hinds, co-founder and managing director of Lumiton.

Jessica Owen
Music, hello. My name is Jessica Owen, and I am the Deputy digital editor at WTiN, and this is the WTiN podcast. You 2020. Has been a challenging year for everyone so far. Therefore, for this series, I'll be exploring the innovative ways in which companies are using Textiles and Apparel to improve our health and well being.

This week, I am joined by Gates Hinds, who is the co founder and Managing Director of Lumiton Gates talks about the company's solution that transforms textiles into a light delivery system for enhanced performance, protection, cooling, comfort and wellness. You

Well, hello gates and a very warm welcome to the WTiN podcast. How are you doing today?

Gates Hinds
I'm doing wonderful this morning. Thank you. It's morning here on the East Coast. Brilliant.

Jessica Owen
So I have invited you on today, because you are the co founder and Managing Director of Lumiton. So if you could please, do you mind just telling me a bit about the company and what it does? Exactly?

Gates Hinds
Sure? Well, Lumiton technology is a platform technology that transforms textiles, no light management system, right? That offers a number of advantages in the areas of comfort, protection, performance and overall wellness. So that's the basic technology. We use our light energy to improve the apparel items we rely on every day. In terms of the company, the group came together around four years ago. Our partners background, there are three of us. My two partners background, are really PhD scientists that use their expertise in the science of light, or what we call optics, to solve problems for industry, generally, from the semiconductor industry to telecommunications to military medicine, those type of things and and so the company, you know, we came together four years ago, and essentially we asked at that time, You know, what? What new arena could we help transform using their light physics expertise and experience? One of my partners, one of those same partners, Marco, was pretty active in triathlons and things, and was pretty tuned to performance textiles. And we're here in North Carolina, which is just a great textile state, long history here, so it was really natural that we turned to textiles to try to think about what to do with this light technology and expertise they have,

Jessica Owen
right? Okay, and so you said there that you've got a couple other co founders. Do you mind just telling me a bit more about them? I mean, you said that they've got a science background. They do.

Gates Hinds
We have a nice mix of more seasoned and then a newer scientist. So the Dr fairmose ferrahi, who is really our technical advisor, is has been a long standing professor of physics and optics at a local university. Here he came, actually, he studied in England. He's originally from, from Iran. I believe he left after the cultural or right for the Cultural Revolution, ended up studying in Cambridge, I believe, in England, and then took a position over here and has been in the States ever since. He's got quite a he's a very humble, humble man, but he has quite a great background helping companies like Intel and apple and all those in light physics and to use to solve problems. Marco SIP ONi is from, originally from Italy, and he was a student at the University where Dr fruh He worked, and they became close, and he too got his PhD in physics and optics. So they, they represent, you know, coming through the science at different times, but they also represent, you know, a good breadth of information and experiences to bring to bear on our company. Right?

Jessica Owen
Interesting. And so how do you fit into all this? Then, do you know them? Or how did Sure? So

Gates Hinds
I have more of an entrepreneurial background. I am a attorney as well, and have securities license and some private equity experience, but I've always been been very interested in bringing new things to light, and then kind of working hard to get make them practical. And Marco and I were very good friends, and he said, you know, you really need to come meet with me and Dr Fauci to see kind of what we're working on, talking about and and so we did that. And then, and then this whole idea was born of, how can we really bring something new into the world, hopefully with with what what they know and what we can hopefully execute together. So that was my, how I came to be involved.

Jessica Owen
And so you said they saw came about four years ago then. So that's how long it took to sort of develop it from the initial idea to where you are now.

Gates Hinds
That's right. That's right. You know, none of us, none of us were in the textile industry, which is actually probably helpful in the big picture, to be able to innovate in this way, but it took quite a while to and I think we've done a good job of coming up to speed on the textile industry in certain aspects. Took quite a while to get our technology into a form using the textile industry that is here in North Carolina, you know, we were lucky to get some good partners in that regard to kind of integrate and to put our technology into yarn, which is where we where it lives. And so, yeah, so it took a while, and we had to test a lot of different raw materials. We basically are, when you really think big picture, what we've done, we've really connected the dots between the, what I would call the physics and optics in light technology industry and textiles, and merging those two, there was a learning curve for us, but I think we were there and ready to, ready to move, move forward pretty rapidly,

Jessica Owen
right? And so just tell me a bit about your technology. Then. I mean, you say that it transforms the sun's energy into into light. And this can have quite a range of benefits. But, I mean, how does that all work?

Gates Hinds
Sure. So the simple idea when we came together was, you know, how can we use this amazing natural resource of light energy to our advantage in textiles, to not fight against this energy, but instead, you know, use it productively. You know, sunlight is the greatest renewable energy source of light. So we really focused on sunlight, although other light does feed our fabric, if you will. So what we did was we borrowed additives from the laser world, which were not typically used in in textiles and at all, and they're very expensive, you know, temperamental. We had to test a lot of them, but essentially what we've done is we've found the ones that really work well within the textile structure. And what these additives do is they absorb specific energy in sunlight and light, and then they really efficiently use this energy to generate their own light, so they become a bit of a light source, if you will, and that radiates out of the fabric. And so when you do this, this action alone has two immediate, measurable benefits that are familiar to everyone. One is when you are productive with that energy, and you're grabbing it and then throwing it back out of the fabric. In a sense, you get a bit of what we call a shade effect, which is that fabric does not heat up as much as like fabrics that are dyed in other ways and so. So there's a real interesting cooling that can happen to your body, where, when you don't have this insulating layer of heat, heating you up, not withstanding of all the great technologies you know, that have come along with wicking and and pulling heat away from the body. If you're out in the sun and the sun is heating up your fabric, then you kind of all bets are off. And so this really is a new way to look at textiles, to do that. So there's this shade effect, cooling mechanism that can happen, and it's pretty remarkable to to measure it when you do some comparative testing. And then it turns out that these dyes that we're using are also very highly absorbent of the UV range. You know, one of the wavelengths that we're really converting over is UV. And so what that does is it gives this new organic, natural way for UV protection. The way that UV protection has normally been done is either with a real tight weave, which obviously can be very hot, or titanium dioxide, which absorbs the UV so it doesn't get to the skin, if you will. But obviously, then that can convert to heat, because that energy just sits there and converts to heat. So you get this kind of heat dynamic with UV protection. And so while UV protection is not new, most clothing has it or talks about it, this is really a new, new dynamic way to kind of recycle light energy that organically results in UV protection as well, because the UV does not breach your skin. So you have this neat combination of cooling with UV protection. So you can have very thin fabrics that provide UV protection and breathable. It's a neat dynamic. It'll be, it'll be a great in rash guards and things, certainly on the beach. But there's lots of applications for so we are converting light energy in that way. But the other thing that we did while we were creating this technology was we fine tuned this light conversion so that what we are generating in the fabric, out of the fabric is either red or near infrared light. And you ask why we can do that? And I think we can talk about that further. But. We will but essentially, you know, my partners are voracious readers and voracious of science journals and all this. And what they really noticed was the whole scientific and medical community have really validated that the body uses red and near infrared light energy at the cellular level to pursue health and wellness. And so we said, Well, gosh, if we're doing these other two really neat things, why wouldn't we purposely create red near infrared light so that the physics of that is that if it's next to the skin and it radiates out, it will penetrate into the body, and there probably are, you know, why wouldn't you do that? The Wellness impact is there and validated so, so let's, let's give that light so you have this whole new Wellness bridge to wellness that we give with our with this fabric,

Jessica Owen
if you will. That's a lot to absorb, sure.

Gates Hinds
No pun intended. Well, exactly. Yeah.

Jessica Owen
So I just want to ask then, so this light is absorbed by the body at a cellular level, I mean, are you able to sort of explain how that then triggers the sort of wellness benefits, I mean, or is that going to a lot more sciency depth there? No, well,

Gates Hinds
the good news is I'm not the scientist, so I've had to learn it at non scientific depth. So now be clear, we are claiming so when this so our fabric, we certainly can claim demonstrable shade effect, cooling, UV protection is measurable. We can certainly measure the white light wavelengths that are coming out the backside of our fabric. They're converted. It's really neat to see in terms of what happens in the body. You know, we are we are really relying on the broader science of what happens that is now just very you know, the whole medical industrial complex is making lasers for this and LEDs, but light is consistent. Meaning, there's not they're not producing a different type of light. They may be producing a light of greater intensity, whatnot, but it's the same light, if you will. So essentially, what is what? What happens in the body? Is it, when we why we say cellular level is what they have figured out after study after study of cells all over the body, from skin to joints and muscles, is that the mitochondria, which are the power plants of your cell that produce what's called cellular energy, which is kind of what drives our bodies to live and thrive, is if they are able to synthesize light, the energy and light, which is a wave, light energy directly, and produce more cellular energy. So whatever that, it's a real fundamental thing. So whatever that cell was born to do, if you will, it's going to pursue it in a healthier way, and have the tools to do that. So light energy is just a basic universal, what they figured out, a universal kind of catalyst at the cell in the cells within the cells, to synthesize that energy, almost like a dual power plant. We use food, and there's the breakdown for certain things. They also figured out that they can directly synthesize light energy to create benefits and to pursue health and wellness,

Jessica Owen
right? Okay, well, I think I understood that, which is a I'm surprised, but yeah, now you've explained that. Well, thank you. So this formula, then that you've come up with, you embed it into textiles. I mean, is that embedded into the fibers then? And then it's knitted into a fabric as normal,

Gates Hinds
right? So it's a solution, dyed product, which means it is extruded into the yarns itself. When the yarns are made. Then whether it's a synthetic, obviously, it has to go into, whether it's not a coating, so it's in the volume of the yarn, throughout it and and so, yeah, it was built. It can go into, you know, polyesters, nylons, other general synthetics, polyamides. And so, yes, it sits in the yarn. It's extruded into the yarn. So it's a it's a master batch that we make, concentrated that then is extruded down into into yarns. We spent a lot of time. It was very important to not have this be some newfangled process that that required new machinery and all that, you know, working in within the context of the existing textile world was important.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, exactly. It just makes the whole process a lot simpler. And I guess, like then when you're contacting people to try and make this for you, or the final garments, they can get their head around it, and it more likely to say, Yes, I imagine,

Gates Hinds
right? Yeah. I mean, I think people's expectation is, oh, the yarns must be different. They must, you know, are they going to react the same in my machines, and it's basically the exact same product, except it happens to have our additives in that that, you know, elevate the experience, you know. Okay,

Jessica Owen
and so there are other brands I think around, like Under Armor. I think they've got a product called rush. They. Also another company in the UK that I know of, called chimera, and I'm assuming there probably might be a couple of us up there that I've not mentioned, but they do very similar things with light technology. I mean, are they the same as yours? Or how do they differ at all? You

Gates Hinds
know, I'm really glad you asked this question. They're actually very different. They're very different, and I'll take you through it the So, basically, what you're referring to are what's called infrared technologies. The word infrared generally means, you know, delivery of heat. You know, all of us have routinely experienced the effect of infrared heat on our bodies. You know, hot showers, hot baths, heating pads that relaxes the muscles since the connecting collagens, you know, loosen up. You know, it's very good for you if, for example, you have pain due to a muscle tension or contraction. Using that heat is good. So this heat, infrared heat, is what under armor and chimera and these salient and these other that you're referring to do, they specifically what they do, or their additives they put in the yarn, take your body heat and reflect it back to you. So it's really a reflecting back of your body heat technology. We're very different from that. Obviously we, our fabrics, use outside light, sunlight, to produce red and near and red light. Your bodies don't naturally produce red near and red light. And as we talked about we, the reason we do this is the greater scientific medical community is, you know, these devices today that to deliver this light that really go to the cellular level, as we talked about, which is a much deeper and broader application of wellness than than the heat, if you will. So lumaton essentially offers the same light to your body as a laser LED system, just at a much lower wattage dosage, if you will, something that you can walk around all day. So, you know, they're very different, but, but obviously ours wouldn't work. You know, I've seen that technology, you know, and you know, recovery, where they call it, things you would sleep in, and things like that, you know, to kind of reflect your body heat back to help you in that way. Obviously, our technology doesn't live there, unless you had LEDs all over your sheets. But, you know, we're so we're really an external light technology that then activates the fiber and then gives red and air and fed light to your body. It's not a reflection back of body heat, which is, which is really what those technologies are geared toward.

Jessica Owen
And I mean, are there any companies at all that do do something similar to you, or do you reckon you're the first ones out there? Well,

Gates Hinds
you know, we may get a call from someone here in this podcast, but as far as as far as we know, we are the only ones that have approached it from this angle, looking at the impact of the Sun in such a holistic way, to then deliver certain other benefits to your body. You know, we're very much about productively using light and sunlight around us and the energy, much in the way, you know, people make solar cells, and they've figured out ways to productively use the energy and light we've we're trying to put that in fabrics productively use it, not just fight against it, you know, not reflect it back or whatnot, but to actually use that energy. So I think we're, I think we're pretty trailblazing in this, in this arena, and and so, which is has been both a is an incredible opportunity, but also it's been a

Jessica Owen
challenge. Yeah, I can imagine,

Gates Hinds
you know, the messium, it's so new, and frankly, is why we went ahead and formed the brand loomiton, to to get the technology into the world and start these conversations. Because ultimately, it's the brands really we recognize very early on. Someone could certainly, you know, build a brand around this, but that the existing brands are the ones that really, that really, that are great storytellers. They're great already have that distribution and really get this in the hands of people all over the world. Are the ones that really need to adopt it and run with it?

Jessica Owen
Well, I mean, that sort of brings me quite nicely into another question that I had, because the line of products that you've started out with is mainly to do with active wear, and I guess when you're talking about wellness and things like this, going into active wear is probably quite a nice match and a link between the technology and trying to describe it to consumers. So do you mind just telling me a bit more about the products that you have at the moment?

Gates Hinds
Sure. So when we launched lumaton, we decided to go with the most basic, universal item. At least, we saw that anybody would, you know, wear under the sun, if you will, and was so we started with a shirt and more of an active wear shirt, one that you would envision wearing walking or gardening or playing sports, you know, or going to the beach with. So we started with a basic t shirt, if you will. There's a performance t shirt and and then we added a long sleeve version, because people were really asking for that in terms of the UV protection. We have people, and we can get to kind of who are, what people are saying about our products. But so we added shirts, and then long sleeve. Shirts and then a hoodie that people wanted to carry the technology up over their head. And then we were in North Carolina. And obviously we make yarns. And so a real efficient use of our technology is seamless, which is going straight from yarns to end product, not not having the cut and sew fabric step. And we're very fortunate to have a lot of sock makers here in the Carolinas and some good friends who make for some really well known brands, made some socks and sleeves for us, you know, for for calf sleeves and arm sleeves. So that is the those are products. And then we did, we did make something that was a little bit more fun called a sun Blanket. Blanket is probably not the word I would use now for the sun wrap, but basically it is a sarong type that you can wear at the beach or put over you and basically get the benefit of this red light and cooling and UV protection lying in the sun, if you will. My vision for that, ultimately, is, I think all the hotels of the world should when you walk down to the pool and they say, Jess, would you like a cabana or whatever? Would you like a towel? And would you like a sun blanket? So, so those are the products that we've that we have, have we made and and they're living in the world now, and people are really enjoying them, of course, in the pandemic, as we could talk about little later, we little later, we now added a mask to the mix, but, but those are, those are our basic products that we've made. But yes, you can go into, we really think pants. You know, people generally don't layer their pants, and so even kind of a faux gene, or going over more into the fashion, everyday wear world from active wear, work wear would really benefit from this technology.

Jessica Owen
Interesting. And so you said there that the feedback has been pretty good. I mean, how exactly have people responded to it? People coming back for more? Do they think it's quite incredible what it can do? Are they really noticing this sort of benefits at all?

Gates Hinds
Yes. So the broad answer is yes on that. But let me just break it down for you, but kind of by the attributes, if you will. So the response has been extremely positive and very consistent with the science, frankly, cooling. So the kind of the immediate gratification things people, people can feel, or the shade effect cooling. And obviously they noticed the UV protection. So, you know, people have worn this on the beach. They've worn this in, you know, the dry heat of Arizona, even Kona, someone who was a, who was a in Hawaii, you know, the great Iron Man race, woman who had run a bunch of those, was cheering it on and wore stuff and commented how much cooler she more tolerable It was when she was wearing and again, it's not air conditioning, but basically it puts a ceiling on, kind of how hot you get, if you will, and so your body can adjust it. It's really, it's really allows you to stay out in the sun and be active, probably longer, ultimately. So people are very much experienced and are very, you know, able to compare to their black tights or whatever it is, even their other shirts that they wear that are colored similarly by other brands. And notice that they're, you know, good, but more comfortable from a heat perspective in our shirts and then the UV protection. People notice that, you know where their their fabric meets their skin. You know, where the fabrics not you know, they'll see they burned, and they didn't burn through our shirt. So they, you know, the UV protection is validated in terms of the wellness. You know, again, we we claim that we give the light through for now, the wellness consistent with the science we have been very has, has borne true. There's a, for instance, a weight lifter in Australia who we didn't know, who owns one of our, some of our shirts, and basically said that, listen, I am a semi professional power lifter, and I've noticed that my back is recovering quicker. We have people it seemed, you know, just like anything, people respond differently, probably to light energy. So those who notice it really notice it. In terms of skin health, we've had the recently with our masks. I've had some people swear that they're not getting dry lips. You know that the bags under their eyes? They feel it receding, kind of thing, certainly on the less inflammation point of what red nerve, red light does. We've had anecdotes from more than several people, some golfers and some other people who've worn our sleeves and and, you know, kind of scratching their head that their their elbow feels better after a week or so of wearing this. And we've had people that have had to get hadn't had to get cortisone shots because they've been wearing our sleeve, you know, so, but all that is anecdotal. All that is his experience that I think is only going to get more and more in terms of devoted following that you asked about. Yeah, we have some marathoners that this is all though, where that basically there was a gentleman from, I believe it was Minnesota, here in the States, and who's very fair skinned. And he said he initially bought it for the UV protection. And but what he noticed is that in a race or a marathon, that when the sun would come up and start to normally be a factor, you know, and start to be kind of this other thing out there that was fighting against you, that it was not as as much of a factor. And so he is. He's bought probably six shirts to date, and then we have some casual runners who swear that they have more energy, and some tennis players that swear they have a little more energy. They can't explain why, you know, when they pay several back to back matches, why they seem to have a little bit more pep in their step at the end, again, all anecdotal, all all but very consistent with the science and why people use medical devices for this to begin with. So

Jessica Owen
what I love about it is the how you've said you've got someone who was cheering on an Ironman race in Hawaii, someone who's power lifting in Australia. I mean, that's such a huge reach.

Gates Hinds
Yeah, I think, I think it's, it's, it's just a fun light listen. I think we can all relate to being in a dark room or having several days of no sun, really. And when the sun comes out and you step out there and you kind of feel that warmth and the light that you just there's just something innate that you're like, yes, you know, this feels great. We are simply just kind of reconnecting you with nature, if you will, through clothing that we're giving you. You know that red and red light is in sunlight, but obviously you have the problem of UV over exposure and burning and so. So in a sense, we are giving you the best of what's in sunlight, at least a little bit of it through, through your fabric, whereas you don't have that before. So for me, it's like, Oh, why wouldn't you do this if it's readily available? You know, why wouldn't you take advantage of a of a technology that that gives you the opportunity to access that light?

Jessica Owen
Yeah, definitely. So when I first went on your website, it took me a few attempts to read for your technology to understand it and work out what it does exactly. So, I mean, do you find that your consumers found it quite difficult in the beginning to sort of understand exactly what you're doing?

Gates Hinds
Yeah, no, that's a wonderful question. I think that that, yes, I think we've gotten much better at this. You know, it's a multi tiered, kind of a new way to think about the platform. And we definitely, in the beginning, were much more coming at it from more kinds, what I would call science, tech speak, which was not necessarily connecting, or it was more difficult to kind of get your head around, I think. But what we've gotten more comfortable as we talked about, you know, I think most people have an innate feel that light is good for you, and so we've able to kind of relax into that and that, able to connect on a much simpler level, essentially, you know, we we give you access to light energy through clothing and and they're good things that can flow from that. I think that messaging is really simple, and we're moving there. But again, I think there's great storytelling here, possibilities for the brands around sun and light and reconnecting with nature that you know, that we just don't have the expertise or the experience to tell but I think we've gotten better at it over time. But even you know, there's work to be done. You know, even that our website, you know, we finally hired and engaged with some former executives that were a large brand that basically said, Listen, you need to try to talk about this technology in a way that connects better with the executives across the table as well as the consumer. And so even what you see now is our attempt to bridge that gap, and hopefully we'll continue to evolve that to make it more, you know, more straightforward. Okay,

Jessica Owen
you've already mentioned that you've also diversified into face masks. Now because of Coronavirus, are there any other applications that you're maybe thinking of getting into later on at all? Well,

Gates Hinds
I think it's a platform technology. So once brands get a hold of this and other people and kind of start get there, I think we'll see a lot of different applications. What we outside of apparel, our focus has been on apparel. It's obviously next to the body, and so you can take advantage of the full suite of of benefits. But yeah, there, there is certainly applications in outdoor furniture, you know, in terms of the cooling surface, if you will. There's also applications, probably in draperies, things like that. There's also, you know, this is really the first level of the technology, which is a very one step process, you know, light comes in, it gets absorbed, it gets thrown out of the fabric. And there are benefits from that. There are more complex things you could do with this platform, around sensors and and other things, hiding solar cells, masking stuff. So, you know, more complex things. So there are lots of different products. You know, you could have a backpack that that had a solar cell behind a pan, or the pan. Know that you couldn't see, but I had our fabric, and it was feeding it, you know, so you could have more esthetic applications and things, but, but right now we're really focused on the apparel and and and clothing. But, yeah, I think there's lots of different avenues this can go, as well as different versions of the science as they get a little more sophisticated,

Jessica Owen
right? Well, we'll have to keep an eye on you guys, just in case any of these things come to fruition. Okay? And I also wanted to ask you now about COVID 19. Obviously, it's a topic that we can't really escape these days, and one thing that I've been finding is that a lot of people seem to be exercising more. They seem to be a lot more aware of their health and looking after themselves better. So have you noticed an increase in sales, or have you noticed that same trend when it comes to lumiton?

Gates Hinds
Yeah, I think that, you know, obviously, the pandemic has been unfortunate for everyone, but I if the one silver lining is it's made us all focused a little bit more on health and wellness. And, you know, things we can do other than just organic foods and yes. So you know, our message is, wear healthy. We trade more fat that now, you know you can eat healthy and act healthy, diet and exercise, but now you can add kind of clothing to the mix. So yes, people have definitely, at least the messaging is much more receptive, and they they're curious about it even more to drill down on it. So yes, more people have been embracing the I guess, our technology, if you will. We've certainly seen sales go up on our site and and we've certainly seen more receptiveness on the brands to really talk about this, especially given this, this bridge to wellness, yeah, it's really compelling. But the pandemic, you know, we did create because we have, you know, our technology lives in yarn, and we're fortunate to be here in North Carolina, and we have a seamless manufacturer that has was making some really neat face masks to begin with, facial masks, and so we just substituted our yarn, and are now offering those, and on our side, we've certainly seen a huge uptick in people buying those. I think that the technology proposition on those is nice, but really what people love is the color our but when you generate red light and different wavelengths and you're actually having your fabrics essentially a light source. It makes for some really unique kind of coloring and and distinctive color. So people have kind of, it's made them happy to be able to throw color on. Yeah, a pop of color. You know, even if they're wearing all black, we've had some people who wear all black, but yet they'll have our beautiful pink face mask on. But yes, I think, I think the messaging people, people really are, are tuning in a little more now than they were for

Jessica Owen
sure, right? And I guess actually having the face mask, that might be quite a nice way to introduce people to the brand. They might come across a face mask first and then be like, oh gosh, they do all these other things. I guess it's quite a nice gateway product.

Gates Hinds
Absolutely, it is. It has been a wonderful gateway product and and, you know, as you imagine, it uses not that much of our yarn, but it is a product people need and want. And, you know, we've managed to make one that is, I think, by all accounts. You know, no face mask is perfect for everybody, but most people embrace and like and comfortable. And so I think you're absolutely right. It's a, it's a wonderful way to introduce the technology to people in a very finite way, and then they can imagine what else, you know, to start to get to the messaging of it. But yeah, it's been great. And the same actually, you know, our underlying patent also covers animals. And one great use of this textile and technology is for animals. And so we have had some people who have made some, what I would call shade shirts, cooling shirts, for their dogs. Most, most of that technology around, you know, for animals, for dogs, at least, is, is evaporative cooling, where they put, like, wet it, it evaporates and makes them cool. But this actually is kind of a new way to do that. So, so there are a lot of and horse blankets and things. So there are a lot of neat products and technologies that can benefit our our animal friends as well. That's

Jessica Owen
so interesting. I didn't realize that before. Yeah, very cool. And, you know, I mean, this is completely random, but I learned the other day that pigs don't have sweat glands, so they that's the reason they're always in mud. And I was like, maybe, maybe you should diversify into that.

Gates Hinds
Well, you know, sure, I think if it helps, if that helps the farmers grow bigger pigs and happier pigs. I think you know, they should look into it, certainly the horse community with horse blankets, because you may not know this, but red light therapy is, you know, I call my veterinarian and. Get put on hold, and they the recording says, Ask us about red light therapy for wound healing and post surgery recovery for your animals. It's the same, it's the same science. It's, it's, you know, delivering light to the to the body and cells. So it's, it's, it's, it's used in the animal world. So people are, people are familiar with it. Another thing

Jessica Owen
that's come out of the pandemic is that people are talking more about sustainability, and I understand that your products can actually be made from recycled polyester, and they're also dyed in a way that saves energy and water. And so do you mind just sort of telling me a bit more about that? Please,

Gates Hinds
sure. Right, so, so basically, I'm sure you're familiar with solution dyed yarns, and the arguments and the reality that they don't consume as much water or energy. And there's, you know, pretty remarkable savings from not having to after dye a product and the wastewater and the chemical runoff. So there's really, we are in that same vein that we, you know, the synthetics. We just because we extrude into the yarn at the beginning, our yarns come out the color they are essentially and so there is not any after dying. So we contribute to that ability to as manufacturers, can move more to that model of sustainability, where the solution dyed yarn saves on the environment, energy and water wastewater. So we're proud of that. And, you know, that's nice, that we line up nicely with that in terms of the materials, right? We are also sustainable on a material side that we are definitely compatible with any kind of the latest and greatest in biodegradable polymers, whatever they're doing to additives they add to make that sure they, you know, break down over time instead of stay in the landfills forever. So, so yeah, we from a sustainability story where we were right there with that story as well, but kind of the new model of sustainability, I think that Loomis on ads, and the way that our approach ads is we're, you know, we're legitimately using the renewable energy from sunlight, and so that is a real sustainable, kind of broader sustainability story of reusing, kind of the world's energy, if you will. That you know, is certainly what people are trying to do when they do solar energy for houses and cars and things. So we think about it as kind of a new model of sustainability. So while we are compatible and and very sustainable that we also give brands the ability to to, you know, point to that as well, which is, I think, a new twist.

Jessica Owen
It's great because, I mean your company, just to me from speaking with you today. It just sounds like you've, you're just so modern. You come up with a really cool like technology, and you've got the actual sustainability credentials the health and wellness movement. I mean, it sounds like you're really onto something here, or maybe you're just really good at talking. And I'm, you know, I'm just loving it up.

Gates Hinds
No. I mean, you can imagine, I thank you for saying that. You can imagine that we've been really challenged from people who said, prove it and all these things. But I do think that the important is not to over promise on it, but it is a new way of when you look at this in a new way and you you impart textiles, the ability to to kind of manage light and to use unproductively. These are just the kind of things that flow from it. Um, from it. And it may sound too good to be true, but I think it's just a leap so and you know, they're things we haven't even talked about that. I have a friend, for instance, who who has worn our Carl red shirt a bunch. He's not a big shower. He confessed that he has, he has, you know, not washed his shirt and re worn it when he's gone running and things like that. And he's noticed it's not smelling. We have no way to so there's no antimicrobial test right now for for lights impact, you know, there's certainly coatings and things. So we haven't even tested that, and we don't claim that, but it's interesting to note that, you know, it's kind of consistent that UV light is used to purify things, and if we're converting light in the fabric, that perhaps that's overwhelming those microbes or whatnot. Secondly, interestingly, our fabric, when you when you have yarns that generate light, it's like two light sources, if you will. And so our coral fabric is actually a 5050, combination of a real pink yarn and a very orange yarn. So if you go to look at our mask on our site, you'll see some pink masks and orange yarn. If you merge those two together, you get our coral color, and it mixes to your eye. So you have a much more kind of a new color, if you will, by having two separate yarns. And it doesn't, you don't see the lines as much as you normally would on certain if you were to mix, you know, colors of a different way that generate color differently. And what that has done is, I had a friend who's in New York, you know, they go to the gyms a lot right up there. And this is about a year and a half ago. And she said, this may be too much information, but, you know, I do not see my sweat stains, you know, in the mirror after my workout. And I said, Well, we started thinking, we hadn't thought about that, right? And so we're starting to think about that. And we say, well, it kind of, it makes sense, actually, the light in your eye, and your eyes very, very sensitive, or whatever is the light that's probably coming out of this shirt is overwhelming or masking whatever that dark stain normally would be. And it's not in all of our shirts, but certainly in the ones that mix those in that way. So so you get some esthetic benefits that, that, that we have it. We don't even talk about that. But there's just other things that flow from kind of when you when you have a whole new system.

Jessica Owen
Well, it sounds like you have a lot of avenues to explore. Well, I mean, gates, I'm sort of coming to an end now, unfortunately. But the one thing I wanted to ask you, because I've been asking everyone else, it's quite interesting to hear what everyone does differently, but what do you personally do to sort of look after your own health and well being like, aside from maybe wearing louiston products,

Gates Hinds
right? Well, I've certainly been wearing the lubinton products. You know, the pandemic has been interesting. I have young kids, and, you know, we can all get busy going about our lives, but the pandemic has has really made me go outside more with my kids biking and and I've started to do something I never did before, which I walk. Now I'll go out for walks, because I've read up a little bit on the health benefits of that and that, you know, going out and jogging. I actually had a knee surgery last year, so I'm a little bit more wary of, you know, wear and tear. And so the walking has been really, a really nice thing going out there.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, it's funny, you mentioned that walking the one thing I've been really doing as well. Actually, I'm quite lucky to live in up in Yorkshire in the UK, and we've got lots of nice walks around us. So I think walking is just really underestimated. Maybe, I mean just to go in the woods, I don't know, maybe the smell of trees or something. I don't know, it does clearer just

Gates Hinds
being out in nature and taking some time to do that. It's, it's been a really, really nice thing. So hopefully I'll keep that up too. But what I was going to also say before we is, you know, obviously our we have customers on our website, but and directly, but we really are actively talking to the brands, the people that can really get this out there, and we've got a group that we've engaged to do that, and are in current discussions with some real big brands in the sport and other worlds. So to the extent that anybody is listening and wants to get in touch on that, we're welcome those conversations,

Jessica Owen
right? Well, gates, it's been really lovely to speak with you today, and you've I feel like you've given me so much information. I need to soak it all in and get my head around it. But yeah, no. Thank you for coming on and enlightening me. Excuse,

Gates Hinds
great marketing you can do around this. Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Owen
You could lot, lot of puns in there anyway, but thank you very much for coming on. It's been great to have you.

Gates Hinds
Jess Pleasure is mine. Thank you so much.