Ep. 65: Finisterre: Designing for circularity Ankit Podcast

This transcription has been AI generated and therefore may have some inaccuracies.

Ep. 65: Finisterre: Designing for circularity

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is Debbie Luffman, product director at Finisterre.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Debbie Luffman

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen, and I'm the Deputy digital editor at WTiN. And this is the WTiN podcast. Join me and my guests every week as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I am joined by Debbie Luffman, who is the product director at the British outdoor clothing brand Finisterre. There'll be talks about the company's approach to sustainability. Its new, functional and biodegradable bio smart jacket and how it's exploring fibre to fibre recycling. And using alkyne kelp as new materials.

Good morning, Debbie. Lovely to talk to you again. How have you been?

Speaker 2
Not too bad? Thank you. Yeah. Nice to be here again. Good.

Speaker 1
It's how's it down in Cornwall at the moment?

Speaker 2
It's a beautiful spring, spring like hopeful day. Actually. It's um, yeah, blue skies. Cool. mulata. Best are

Speaker 1
beautiful. I imagine this summer is gonna you're going to be inundated with tourists again, as it looks like we're not really going to be able to travel abroad just yet. Yeah,

Speaker 2
I think so this is a lot of reports of Cornwell being full. So yeah, that definitely got left in the garbage this this this year?

Speaker 1
Well, I mean, thanks, again, for joining me on the podcast today. Because, I mean, I understand that finished air has been working on a few interesting things lately, or over the last couple of years, including your new bio smart jacket, which I think was sort of launched at Espo. So yeah, it's just great to have the opportunity to sort of pick your brains about these. Before I do that. Do you mind just sort of telling our listeners about Finisterra? What you do as a company, just in case, you know, people aren't familiar with you? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So So ministers, an outdoor clothing brand. We're based in Cornwall, as I said, we produce sustainable outdoor clothing for men and women who share our love of the sea. The ocean is very much our sort of our guiding light. So it provides our, our source of, of inspiration at all times. And we've been going since 2003.

Speaker 1
Right? And so he founded the company then it was founded by

Speaker 2
Tom Kay, who is it's fair to say he's he's sort of part part fish and out and out water, originally from Norfolk, so he was much more interested in in sailing, and windsurfing, but came to Cornwall, inspired by the sea and by surfing and made it his home and the start of Finisterra in 2003.

Speaker 1
Very Okay, interesting. So I mean, aside from just a passion for the outdoors, did he have a background in textiles? I mean, how did the company just build up?

Speaker 2
So no, he absolutely didn't. And he, he's, he's very open about that, in terms of his background, was in marine biology. He studied marine biology. And it's sort of the same thing a lot of us do. When you use Post University, you can end up in a career, that's not quite where you thought you would be. So I think he went into surveying as a surveyor in London, and then went no, this, this very much isn't for me. So the brand was started very much as a combination of really Tom's passion for being near the ocean in the ocean. But what he was very astute at in the early days of Finisterre, was recognising who else he needed to work with to realise his his dreams. So he quickly brought on board people who within textiles, design, marketing, to create, you know, to realise his vision. And so

Speaker 1
I mean, I think I read that the company started off by developing a fleece and I mean, since then you've now offer T shirts, wet suits, a whole host of things. Is that right?

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. The original product was a fleece. It was a very, very heavy fleece brilliant a lot of people around St. Agnes. Westminster's age HQ is you'll still see them wearing this fleece. Absolutely bomb proof. It was a double layer incredibly warm, weatherproof fleece. Not necessarily particularly practical for for travels, it was very heavy. But it was it was about really pioneering products that worked that performed but sustainable, low impact sourcing was there from from the beginning. It was about really how can you use marry your passion? to being in the environment without damaging the environment for the products that we make,

Speaker 1
but Well, that's interesting, because I was I was I know that sustainability, obviously, is something that brand has conceded since its inception. But so was that the whole reason, then because it's an outdoor brand, do you want to protect the outdoors? Was Was that why you've been doing this from for the last 20 years? I mean, we're seeing more companies now. Consider sustainability. But you guys seem to have been doing this, you know, forever.

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's, it's a, it's a funny thing, really, if, if you are drawn to the natural world, and you will enjoy being in the environment, and doing sport, and getting mindfulness and peace from being in the natural world, it doesn't make any sense that you then produce garments that are highly, highly toxic, and are not built to last. So I think the outdoor clothing market actually is more well placed from a sustainability point of view, because it's about making products that work. It's about making products that last and do the do. So So really, it was there from the beginning. And it was also very much a reaction to what was in the market at the time. So you're the action sports industry was putting out really cheaply made products that weren't necessarily relevant to the to the British outdoor goer. So you know, a flip flop in the boardshort, my brilliant in Hawaii, but actually, you know, we don't we don't we have a lot of weather, we have a lot of weather, and therefore the products that are relevant for the British consumer, and indeed, the European consumer. And this is there was a real sort of disconnect, I think, both environmentally and functionally for the products that we were seeing in the market. So it's a gap in the market and opportunity, and driven by by passion to improve on what was already there.

Speaker 1
And so tell me about some of the measures that finished air has taken to be more sustainable that and I mean, there are a whole host of things that I mean, I've read up on and heard about, and for example, I think you have like a repair survey. So yeah, just tell me a bit more about what you do.

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, as I said, it was very much sort of baked into us from from the beginning. We didn't it was quite new, I think at the time as well. So, you know, I've got the very first copy of eco textile magazine, for example, which really from from cover to cover, organic cotton is about the only thing featured at it. So at the sort of early days of sustainable sourcing we were, we were learning and we were sort of testing and, and developing more sustainable textiles. from a business point of view, as you said, repair was there. I used to do it myself when I joined in 2008 on a Monday night. It's now grown to be our lived and loved service online in store as well. So a repair services has been there. For over a decade, we've been on a journey to eradicate single use plastic from all of our supply chain, which goes from sort of a funny little thing, Kimball, which is how you connect a swing tag to a product. It's a pointless little loop of plastic. A very simple product to replace. So we went back to string, slightly less simple and highly complex was our packaging who'd been on a journey there as well. We initially began with compostable cornstarch packaging, we then moved to a biodegradable packaging, which we then discovered was degrading only to micro plastics as opposed to fully biodegrading. So then we developed working with Aquapac, our Leave No Trace bags, which are water soluble, recyclable and compostable, and break down fully in the natural world, both on land and sea to a non toxic biomass. So that's taken up quite a lot of energy. But we also from animal welfare and human rights set a lot of store in our transparency. So there's a lot of details you can find on our website, the factories of Finisterre, and also the fabrics of Finisterre, where we try to explain the sort of holistic process that goes into low impact sourcing. It isn't that it isn't particularly simple. So unfortunately, it's not a case of one fibre or textile is good. And another is it's bad. People like to think plastics are bad and natural fibres are good. For example, there's good and bad and everything. It's very much a balance. So we really do our best through our engagement tools through our websites or our social media, our stores our events, really to try and take the customer and our community on that journey to sort of bring them into actually something that is quite complex to help them understand that. And I think a big moment for us was in 2018, when we we became a certified B Corp. and B Corp, for those of you that are not familiar with B Corp is, is very much I think the strapline is using business as a force for good. And it was a brilliant moment in terms of being part of something bigger. So we're a little brand in Cornwall with big ideas. And we've we've achieved a lot but actually B Corp allowed us really it gave us a framework to sort of measure ourselves push ourselves to improve, and a ready made community to collaborate with and, and share in that in our successes and challenges. Lots more has been happening as well. But I think those are some of the big milestones. I would I would I would start with.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of information to take in it's. But I mean, that's great. I mean, water soluble packaging, I think so interesting. I mean, I think I think you probably the only people I've heard of do this. I mean, I've personally never received a package of water soluble packaging. So that does some really interesting. Yeah,

Speaker 2
it's certainly new and emerging. Few more people are doing it. But anyone that wants to listen to this that wants more information, we are also open sourcing with Aquapac absolutely no, no gain to us. We just want more people to use it. And so we can move away from conventional polybags and push the industry for better. So yeah, get in touch if people want to know more. Yeah,

Speaker 1
yeah. And I mean, now lots of companies are considering sort of better packaging and so on. And but I mean, you have taken the step as a company to look at your products, and you know, everything that you do as well, which sort of leads me nicely on to this bio smart jacket that we mentioned at the start. So as I understand this is a new product. I think I only heard about it this year is Espo. And it's biodegradable and functional. So are you able to tell me a bit more about this?

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, the thinnest is bio smoke was launched in January of this year at the ISPO. Outdoor Show in Munich, unfortunately, virtually this year. And it actually won gold in the installation award as well, which was a big achievement for us. So basically, essentially, what the bio smoke is, is the bringing together the best of the natural world and the best of the synthetic world. So from an outdoor point of view, synthetics are fantastic. They offer lightweight, weatherproof, durable performance, which from a from a synthetic point of view means it can also be repaired, it can also be be recycled, as well. So it has a very long lifespan, as well as being super practical and durable in the outdoors. The great, the great thing about synthetics in that outdoor context that's of weatherproof nature, and that durable nature is also bad in the natural world. So in the natural world, that durability means that synthetics persist in our natural world long after we we've had the use of them both on land and in sea. So on a landfill situation polyester may begin to break down after a couple of 100 years nobody's there's differing report, but it's it will probably never break down entirely. And in this in a marine context even worse, unfortunately. So we know from from recent studies, that micro plastics and micro fibres on the seabed is doing unimaginable harm to marine life and eventually to human life as well. So that's the bad side and the good side of synthetics. The excellent side to natural fibres is is is wool. So wool as a technical fibre practical fibre in the outdoor world. It's fantastic. It's naturally antibacterial. It's naturally insulating, has incredible thermal dynamics. So it will keep you cool if you're warm and it will keep you warm if you're if you're chilly. So it says wonder fibre it's everything about that. Fantastic what's not brilliant about well is that it's it's highly absorbent. So The outdoor material on the outside of the garments, it will it will hold on to moisture, it will get heavy, it will get clogged. So it's it's not it's not particularly the one. However, when you combine the two together, you get the best, the best of both worlds. So the bio smoke is filled with HD wool. Insulation. So fluff, I'm going to call it for the sake of for the sake of layman's, it's it's the fill on the inside of the bio smock is filled with wool. The outer side of the bio smoke is a recycled polyester, which is has a biodegradable finish. So it's something called Primaloft bio. That is the actual yarn that it's made of. It has good offers all of the practical benefits I just mentioned there in terms of durability, water repellency as well. However, at the end of its life, it will break down through on land and in C it will break down and biodegrade to a non toxic final end of life status, which is absolutely groundbreaking in the outdoor. It's the first of its kind. Wow.

Speaker 1
Right? So I mean, how long would it take to biodegrade that and and how does it say if someone wanted to wear this jacket for 30 years? What stopping it from potentially by degrading while the person still wearing it? And then when it gets thrown away? If you see what I mean? Yeah,

Speaker 2
a lot of people think that it's interesting. I mean, it's it's similar to wall actually, if you think about your, if you're wearing your woolly jumper, it doesn't start to it doesn't start to break down naturally on your back. It absolutely needs to be deprived and a few things in order for it to begin to break down. So it needs to be deprived of oxygen of light. And it will it requires bacteria to grow. Similar to home comb composite, that's easiest way to think about it. If you know if you put a banana skin into your home compost and you go back a few weeks later, you will see that bacteria is feeding on that. That's what the natural biological world does. You know, it's it keeps this cyclical process going. We know that synthetics don't. So the finished the bio the Primaloft bio Yan mimics the natural biological world in that in that respect, and it allows the bacteria to feed on it to begin to biodegrade. So, you know, it's not going to do it in your wardrobe. It's not going to do it as you're walking around. Right.

Speaker 1
I see. So how long were you working on this jacket? Then? I mean, what were the most challenging parts of it to sort of develop? Because I imagine you've still got to balance the performance aspect with it. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2
Yeah, one of the really interesting parts, actually was just looking at the overall garment, from a design through to 3d. And considering how can we ensure that all of the parts on the bio smock have been considered for their end of life? So really designing for circularity? So we had to look at it zips were a no go, for example. So we used a biodegradable and recyclable, recycled biodegradable snap to poppers. And it actually allowed us to dramatically simplify the garment because it was what does this garment need in order to work to be functional and comfortable? And actually, what can we take off. And by doing that, you're essentially creating a much more emotionally durable product because it's less tied to any trend. Or it's, it's it's a more classic piece in that respect. So that was a real challenge for us just to keep the brief, pure, and to ensure that everything that was put onto the garment would also biodegrade. So cotton thread, for example, instead of polyester threads, not using labels, but using waterbase prints and inks. So yeah, really a real challenge for us. But you know, it's we've ended up with a very classic finished garment at the end.

Speaker 1
Well, it's interesting, you bring up the point of emotional durability, because that is something it's only I mean, we've we've spoken about it before, but like people tend to think more on the physical durability side, but actually, I mean, just keeping a garment in your closet for longer would make an awful lot of difference. I think rap has statistics somewhere about that and what it would mean and I mean, for example, I have a jumper that was my mom's there. My mum grew out of it and it went back to my grandma and then my grandma never wore it. So I now wear it and you just think I wonder what the impact of going through three generations has actually had here. It's a really interesting concept. So

Speaker 2
I think yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's something, again, back to why the outdoor world has a real key part to play there. So it's much less about fashion. I think actually, the world has woken up in the last year, as well, too. You know, we're not we're not particularly getting a buying products and clothing for for Friday night anymore, are we you're more likely to get it for your zoom call. But it people are needing products to actually engage with the natural world. And because it may be the only break the screen break and home break they get. So if it's, you know, going for a walk, or run or or, or surf or swim, you know, actually the products you buy there have much more of a functional and durable need than something you're purely buying for aesthetic.

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. I mean, just quickly, do you recommend that even when we go back to normal if we ever go? I mean, I hope we do. But do you think this trend will continue? Or do you think people will go back to you know, maybe buying more clothes again, because they can go in an eye out? For example?

Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, I, I am hopeful, and I'm positive. But we we can't go back fully. I think the world has changed, I think I think big changes has happened globally. I think really, it requires behaviour change. So it's as much to do with the consumer engaging with the broader issues here. So you know, overconsumption is a huge problem, you know, we've seen some fashion brands having a very tough time, but the very low, sort of cheap side of fast fashion is still thriving. And I think it really, it sort of lies within within behaviour. And it needs people to understand that actually, we almost need to flip that it's not cool to have something new for your Instagram posts every day, it's way cooler to have something, you know, hey, I'm still wearing this and it still looks great, you know, or it's my grandkids or it's secondhand. And there's a lot of signs of life and positivity within, particularly within Gen Z, I would say, to really address climate changes is the bigger problem than COVID. And I think people are, yeah, I think it's a shift that is with us to stay.

Speaker 1
And now just moving on something else that I quite liked about this bio smoke jacket, if we just go back to that, is that I read that it's climate positive, because it's used regenerative practices and so on. So I mean, what do you what do you mean by this? Exactly?

Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, regenerative. Essentially, I think the way to think about regenerative is it's very much part of the circular economy. So if you think about humans and making, you know, we obviously, we were making products in a very linear fashion. So we are taking natural resources as if they are ours to exploit we are making and then we are we are wasting them. You know, it's a very outmoded and unsustainable view of how you how you, you make things, a linear approach. So a circular approach and regenerative approach, they're sort of one of the same in that respect, is about saying, hang on a minute, the natural world is fine without us, actually, you know, they don't they don't need us. So how can how can we move away from having no impact on the environment, which is a circular economy. So you keep everything in and there's no waste, and you see waste as a resource, and you just keep things going. That's the circular economy. The regenerative approach is that you actually leave the world in a better place after. So an easier way to think about this, particularly when it comes to agriculture. So we'll cotton linen, the farming practices that are used, currently, are unsustainable in that they deplete soil health, so that the land is in a in a far worse state after humans have implied their agricultural processes. A regenerative approach is actually how can you increase the soil health through the agricultural processes, so it's working in harmony with nature, and it sounds it sounds a little kind of Bohemian and out there, but really, essentially, that is what we need to do to tackle climate change and to move to truly sustainable practices.

Speaker 1
So how does a company such as finished air, integrate these practices into its products and business then? I mean, is it something that you can do as a company or do you have to rely on your supply chain to be doing this themselves and then you can just find those partners to work with

Speaker 2
It's a bit of a mix, actually, I mean, a lot of it comes down to partnering very closely with your supply chain and making it very clear what you you require. So we'll have standards in terms of certifications that we will require to ensure transparency of recycled products. For example, when it comes to agricultural processes. For cotton, for example, we use gops accredited organic cotton, we would like to move to using organic regenerative standards. And we're in the process of investigating that further. It's not overnight, you can't just say right, I only want from now on today, I only want to source products from X Y, Zed, there is a supply and demand issue. COVID has also caused some delays in the supply chain. So some of these things are a slower process. But you also have to consider for us it's very important animal welfare. So whilst a regenerative standard that's good for the soil, may be good for human health, you also need to do your due diligence in terms of animal welfare. So we've in terms of the wall, the HD wall, for example, that's used in the bio smoke. It's a very key part of red tractor certification. It's not just about human health and soil health, it's very much about animal welfare. So it's a Yeah, it's a partnership, I would say, between really working with with suppliers and working with all the way back through tier one to tier three supply chain. It's pretty complicated.

Speaker 1
Yeah, it sounds it. And I mean, yeah, I think all these topics relating to sustainability are just so complex. I mean, I attended a webinar recently Polartec hosted it, and they just brought so many more questions to light that I had never considered before. And I just thought I'm finally starting to understand this complex industry, and they've just thrown a tonne of other things into the mix, which I'm gonna have to think about. And, gosh, it must be so overwhelming for companies like yourself to sort of, you know, try and do your best in every different aspects.

Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's a it's a challenge and one that we we need to take on of how to bring this to life better, more succinctly for the customer. And it's a real challenge, because at one end, you don't want to, to make it so digestible, that you end up greenwashing. You just saying, hey, it's ethical, because it's, it's then meaningless. But at the same time, I completely understand the complexity will lose people, you know, if you suddenly start explaining what goes into the supply chain, you're going to lose your audience really quickly. So there's a job to be done by the industry and by the consumer, to really understand what goes into making products for them to understand good from bad because I think, you know, I was on a webinar the other day, where there was a call for all we need to do is have better labelling in the same way that food will have, you know, calorie count on it, we just need to do that for sustainability on clothing. It's it sounds sounds great. It is not that simple. You know, there's, there's good and bad to wool. There's good and bad polyester, it is not a good bad, unfortunately, sort of simplistic, sort of tick or cross. It's it's a very balanced and quite complicated view. So it will it will happen. It's coming, but it needs some customer, consumer sort of patients I think, and and we need to move away from greenwashing and realise that it isn't simple. Need to take the time.

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. Well, now another thing I wanted to just ask you about, we are sort of coming towards the end of this podcast. But I wanted to ask you about this anyway, is that last time we spoke together, we mentioned that you well, Finisterra is working on a project called wetsuits from wetsuits, whereby you're trying to develop a recyclable wetsuit, essentially. And I mean, where are you at with this? Are you able to provide us with an update at all?

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a whopper of project I've got to be honest with you. It's one of those things where no, the Holy Grail, there's this sort of sustainable you called unicorn of a fibre to fibre recycled products. That's a t shirt is a challenge and we've decided to do it with a wetsuit which is absolutely the most complicated garment on the planet. So we absolutely are still on that mission. The update of where we're at, at the moment is we've moved away fully now from using new Pre that was the biggest step actually, we just launched our fall or in the process of launching our full UX range. So instead of using neoprene, which is a again, going back to the outdoor neoprene is a fantastically fit for purpose material. If you're ever in the sea and you're freezing, you'd be glad that you've got neoprene next to your skin. However, it's highly highly toxic and polluting in its in its process and its end of life. So we've moved fully to you Lex which is a natural rubber. And it has a closed loop process. It uses significantly less amounts of water and energy and is a was a big a big move for us in terms of getting our full wetsuit and swim range to be fully you Lex so that's, that's an important update. In terms of the recyclable wetsuit, it also makes that more easy. So actually, the petrochemical sort of nature of neoprene was one of the reasons why it was extremely difficult to recycle. But the bigger problem is the fact that it's it uses multiple different materials glued together to create a usable wetsuit material next to your skin. So the process has also been looking at the glues and moving moving away from again, highly polluting solvents. So we don't use petroleum solvents anymore, either. So that was another part of the process to help it towards our ambition to refill recyclability. So we're on that journey, we're still on that journey, we would probably about another 18 months of fully commercial, recycled, recyclable wetsuit, from wetsuits. But more broadly, this is something we are working on for all of our product range. So to drive circularity to create truly circular products, we are working with recycling partners, from wool to cotton, polyester, to drive the circular agenda. There's work to be done. So fibre to fibre recycling, is in its infancy at the moment, but huge amount of innovation, investment and collaboration is happening, actually to drive this agenda forward. And we're very much involved and passionate about that project.

Speaker 1
Well, I mean, that's encouraging to hear, isn't it? I mean, I've come across a few. I think chemical recyclers like automated sorting companies, and as you say, it sounds like there's a lot of investment going into this area. So fingers crossed in a few years, this fibre to fibre system will be you know, the norm. But I mean, we'll just have to wait and see, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. Well, before I let you go, then Debbie, I guess the last question I wanted to ask you is whether finished air is working on anything else at the moment? Or whether you even have a wish list of things that you'd like to do in future that potentially you that? Well, it's just not the technology, the materials or so at the moment to do that?

Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, we're working on so many things all the time. Truth be told. And as I said, the sort of speed of innovation and the speed to drive the sustainable agenda within our industry is is or inspiring, actually, there's this there's a huge amount of innovation. So we're always looking to to pilot to trial. That's probably one of the benefits of Finisterra. Actually, as a fairly small brand, we will always try stuff out. And so get there's lots in the pipeline, one of the things we're very interested in is understanding the possibilities for new textiles and new fibres, particularly within a renewable context. So we're working on an innovation pipeline project within kelp, at like Aldi, which we is absolutely in its infancy at the moment, it's it's in a science lab context, but we hope to take that all the way through to a commercial proof of concept. So I can't say I can't tell you too much about it. But that's because we're early days. But yeah, that's really exciting. And we're just always looking for opportunities really to, to collaborate across science across industry, education, you know, we will say yes, if it's about pushing the agenda forwards.

Speaker 1
Well, I mean, that sounds great. If you could integrate kelp into your products, especially if you were talking so much about, you know, the oceans being such a huge part of finished areas of brands that would It would really sort of tie it all in nicely, wouldn't it

Speaker 2
uh Absolutely. And also that know from from a carbon point of view, a lot of people sort of don't realise the huge role that our oceans play within within climate change and within carbon sequestering as well. So it's a huge part of our ambitions as well. Well,

Speaker 1
I mean, Debbie, as always, it's been lovely to chat with you, but we are running out of time, unfortunately. But thank you so much for coming on the show and telling me all about Minister's latest Sustainable Development simple as I said, we'll have to keep an eye on you guys.

Speaker 2
It was a pleasure. Thank you very much. It's great to be here.