Ep. 75: New clean and waterless finishing technology Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 75: New clean and waterless finishing technology

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is Martin Flora, VP, Business Development, Green Theme Technologies.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Martin Flora

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen, and I'm part of the team here at WTiN. And this is the WTiN podcast. Join me and my guests every month as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I am joined by Martin Flora, who is the Vice President of Business Development at green theme technologies. Martin talks about the company's impel platform, which consists of clean chemistry, polymer science and a patented process to create products such as PFC free water repellents, and waterless dyes.

Hello, Martin, and a very warm welcome to the WTiN podcast you well, how are you? 

Speaker 2
Good, Jessica. I'm on the, I believe you guys say on the other side of the pond in the West Coast of the United States. It lovely, sunny Portland, Oregon. It is sunny right now. Anyway,

Speaker 1
I'll see you up important, then I see. That's where a lot of those big names Naik and so on all face. That's a little textile hub over there. Isn't that really?

Speaker 2
Yeah, it is. It's it's turned out to be a design hub in the United States a really growing space. So there's Columbia Sportswear. There's Adi Das has their US operation here Under Armour. As a popular American brand, Nike. There's a whole bunch of brands who have focused here a lot of heavy footwear centric. But you know, Gore has their as one of their core branches here. So there's a large network of very innovative people here. In addition, it's a huge network of marketing companies. So there's a lot of creatives floating around. They don't say keep Portland weird, for no reason.

Speaker 1
And then the latest companies to add to that, and is, of course, your company called green theme technologies, then, which you know, that's the reason we're here today to talk more about what you guys are doing. So you're based in Portland, then. So tell me a bit more about the history of the company. I mean, when was it founded, and who was the brains behind setting it up? Because I mean, I understand this quite a nice story, how it started in someone's kitchen.

Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a great story. So there are a lot of colourful stories around how we got started, and a lot of serendipity in our development process. So the technology was started by what I wouldn't. He's a PhD from University of California, Berkeley. And he actually was one of the lead chemists in Los Alamos National Lab, which infamously is also where the atomic bomb was developed. So, but aside from being a chemist, he was an inventor. And just a very curious person who loved the outdoors. Part of his focus was, you know, looking at problems and just as any true inventor, creatively stepping out of the box and solving them. So he actually started looking at stains on clothing. And he thought to himself, you know, it's strange that we can't get chemistries to stick to textiles any better. And he was looking at stains on clothing and said, You know, I should be able, if I, if I can get a stain that I don't want to stick on my clothing, I should be able to get something to stick permanently, that I do one. And there was the genesis of his idea. And he started in his kitchen, literally on an ironing board with a variety of different chemistries, trying to make things stick, if you will. And interestingly enough, that is the foundation of a lot of what's considered the finishing portion of textiles in in the market space. So he spent a lot I would say, the first two to three years working with a variety of different textiles and textile companies to get this off the ground. And in 2016, I was working as a creative director for our brand. And he, you know, he talked to somebody within the company and they said, you know, you should take a look at this technology. And he was making these wild claims at the time, he had decided he'd figured out how to replace PFCs. So the fluorine based finishes which are toxic, and we now know are have caused a lot of damage both to the environment and to individuals. And he was making claims that his PFC free product was actually really better than C eight and C six and could last over 100 washes, which is, you know, if you wash clothing 100 times, essentially it just disintegrates. So he was basically making a claim of forever, permanence and forever performance. So we had a PhD on staff and I took his samples, I said, Watch these 100 times and see if they work. So after about 108 times, the pH, DNR staff came back to me and said, You know, I'm just wearing the washing machines out, these things aren't coming off. And from then I was intrigued, it was okay, this is something very unique I need to investigate. So I proceeded to go down to his laboratory meet him and his laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And he took me through his technology. And as we talked, it became very clear to me that he had developed something that was radically different in that he had figured out how to, without using water molecularly bond things at the nano level two fibres. And what that meant was every every type of finish that goes onto a textile, so essentially, textiles are built into two categories. One, there's the what I call the making of the textile, which is where you actually extrude the fibres, and then knit them or weave them into a fabric or it can be non woven. And then the other side, which is finishing and that's where all the the unique qualities, because most fabrics when they come out of knitting and weaving are just fairly dull and and unattractive. But in the finishing process, you actually are where you allow put in a colour you put in, you know, all the dyeing goes in that space, all the brushing all of the water repellency or wicking, or anything that really makes a textile, luxurious or high performance occurs in the finishing process. And what he had figured out how to do was replace the existing water base technology, which is incredibly inefficient. And from there, I said, Okay, let's get going. And I, I proceeded to take the next six months to go around the world and talk to all of the contacts that I had, from 30 years in the industry, and found out that there was a tremendous interest in this in this space. And that was about six years ago. So prior to that time, we then looked down the road and said, you know, sustainability is not there yet that everyone in the very near future is going to become acutely aware of this problem. And from that point, we started to try to develop a business that would help us both commercialise globally, this technology to make a change, as well as create a business case in which the business would promote sustainability as a benefit, not as the product that we sell. So we we really worked on developing both the technology commercially to replace, you know, essentially water based finishing, which is incredibly polluting. And I assume that you've, most people in the industry know that there's a there's an 8020. And basically, it says that 20% of the world's water pollution comes from the textile industry. Now, whether that's really true or not, I don't know. But what we do know is it's incredibly polluting. And it's really based on the fact that water is used as the solvent to carry chemistries into fabrics. And that that includes dying, but every time you dissolve chemistries into the water. Once you dip the fabric into that water, the water is contaminated. So for example, half of the cost associated with dyeing fabric is in trying to clean up that water. And some of the things that I've seen globally are appalling. And it it's really worthwhile for us as a as a community in the textile industry to make make changes away from water based finishing. So I've kind of a long answer to, we'd started first in someone's kitchen. And then we went out and looked around the world and found out that there was a tremendous demand for a better product that was also clean.

Speaker 1
And so this product that you've come up with, then this is the MPL platform, right? Correct. And so can I ask you, because you said about these waterbase chemistries, what exactly are you tackling with this then? Is it Have you gone down the water repellent? Is it abrasion resistant? Or is it like everything?

Speaker 2
Yeah, well, it's really, it's really everything related to finishing a textile. So currently, we have in our pipeline 717 innovations based on this platform. Yeah, it's it's, it's expanded tremendously. For example, we are currently we and our business model is such that we licence our technology to the supply chains rather than trying to be You know, for one company to try to make an impact, the only way we're going to do it with with industry partners. So as we go out and talk to people, they have ideas that need to be or problems that can't be solved. And I can go into a few of those. But our first product that we we went after was PFC free. And we did that because it was the most that people were the most aware of it back in 2016, everyone was talking, DuPont had just been sued. And there was all of this, you've probably seen some of the movies that have come out recently, dark water was a very famous one most recently. And so PFC free elimination was starting to be legislated. And that was our first attack, because it was essentially a beachfront for us, a place for us to get our feet wet to solve a real problem. And so our technology, first of all, it was always PFC free. But in addition to that, we're we're currently working on joint development agreements with multibillion dollar companies around the globe, for waterfree dock. And this is obviously one of the biggest targets, because pretty much every textile uses colour in some form or another. So the the potential change to the market is, is massive. And the impact is probably the most important because again, almost every textile is dyed. And so it's not every textile uses water waterfree base, but we're also doing things like we're working on what's called turnout gear for firefighters. So we're able to attach fr or fire resistant particles into the fibres, were able to fix things into ballistics and improve the ballistic nature of, of Kevlar and other elements. So we it's a really wide variety of things. Essentially, what we are is we're a molecular glue. Or it's again, it's a polymer based technology. And we we molecularly glue key fibres to our key key particles and key attributes to the fibres. And it's not just a chemistry though, it's it's a chemistry. It's a process and machinery. So it's really a radical solution to change the industry as a whole.

Speaker 1
Yeah, it sounds really exciting, actually. I mean, you hear of people coming up with very neat solutions, such as the PFC, water repellency, for example, but, but someone could go and try and basically tackle it all. I mean, that really is exciting. So do you mind explaining a bit more about how the technology this molecular glue actually works? I mean, I've been on your website, and I believe it's to do with hydrogen and carbon. But I mean, I think I'm going to need a bit of a chemistry lesson, if I'm honest. So if you wouldn't mind.

Speaker 2
I'll try to keep it fairly simple, because it can be a little tedious at times. So we start with a basic hydrogen and carbon monomer. And monomer is in the form of a liquid, it's non water based. And hydrogen, carbon, obviously, are some of the building blocks in our environment, the core building blocks. And we essentially take and we apply that chemistry, which is, again, the base of our polymer, we start as a monomer. And we it's meant you can apply it in many different ways. So it can use typical industry application methods that can be rolled on. It can be, we use what's called a drug or coder. And the reason why we do that is because it creates no waste. There's absolutely zero chemical waste generated from this process. And it can be sprayed on it can be printed on I mean, so setting the chemistry down was only the first piece of it. And then once it's put on in a very fine quality, we take that full roll, and we put it into what we call a pod. And inside of our pods, essentially what they are is large pressure vessels that are used for cooking the monomer and turning it from a monomer and into a polymer chain. So when you talk about PFCs, for example, you always hear the C six and C eight and essentially what those are are polymers, six carbon atoms attached with fluorine sticking off of them, or ch eight carbon molecules sticking with fluorine sticking off of them. So and the nature that makes those so pernicious is the fact that fluorine it has one of the strongest atomic bonds on the periodic table, if not the strongest, I believe it is the strongest. So that's why they call it a forever chemical. It wants its bond to that carbon to break Get down is almost impossible. It's just, it's just stuck and it just stays there. Unlike that with our product, we actually build the the polymers at the site of the fibre. And so we essentially lay the chemistry on we weave on the fabric, we roll it up, and we put it into these large, essentially pressurised cooking vessels. And we heat we pressurise them. And one of the interesting things that we do as part of our whole sustainable processes, we try to use products that are inexpensive, and also always, we have to think about not just not substituting PFCs with something, or using anything in our process that would contribute to pollution in the future. So a little bit better than something that's out there is not good enough for us, if it's doesn't have a green process to it, we really won't do it, we won't be involved with it. And so in this particular case, we use nitrogen, to pressurise the vessel. And it's again, it's not a, it's not super critical, we're not changing a gas to a liquid or anything like that. It's it's, it's higher than ambient or natural pressure. But what the pressure does is it drives the chemistry deep into the fabric and into the fibres. And it overcomes all of the three dimensional quality of fabrics. So we can treat fleas, we can treat, you know, pretty much anything. And that's what pressure does, it sets the chemistry uniformly and deeply into position. And then once we have it in that position, we basically turn on the heat heater in the in the vessel, and we use steam heat, and we actually recycle that steam as well. So as part of our process and our thoughtful, you know how we're thinking about this down the road. Currently, we're using a boiler, but our goal is to move that steam heating process to solar. So you can heat up steam using solar panels. That steam then goes into the pod, a jacket around the outside of the fabric and and then we recirculate heated nitrogen through the fabric. And then once we it cooks for a short period of time and changes that monomer liquid into a solid polymer. And essentially, when people talk about polymers, most people will think well, that's kind of a very obscure idea. But the best way to think about polymers is their glue. And so all of the glues that we use in our everyday life, whether it's wood, or plastic, or whatever are polymers. So essentially what we're doing is creating this micro fine molecular glue to stick things to the fibres. And because we use that pressure, it's able to penetrate and then because we're essentially penetrating into the fibre and encapsulating each fibre with this nanoparticle level of of chemistry, it sticks and it stays bonded to the fibre for a, essentially the life of the product, whatever that is. And it also delivers a uniformity, which you don't get in wet finishing. So the process has many benefits. And then once we're done, the the beauty of the thing is, once we're done, we don't have to wash it off, we don't have to clean it, it's done, we basically open up the door after it's cooked. And you know, you take out your turkey or your cake or whatever you want to call it right and it's done. We ship it off to the manufacturer, and there's no extra cleaning, there's no nothing done to it. And one of the beauties of it is the fact that the nitrogen that we use goes back into the atmosphere. And the atmosphere is currently made up of 80% nitrogen. So we essentially take the nitrogen from the air and use it for pressure and then we release it. And that's kind of it's not just a chemistry substitution that we're working from it's actually process and machinery and trying to be thoughtful and holistic in our approach from a technology perspective.

Speaker 1
Now, I mean, I appreciate that, like there's been years of research that's gone into this, but I mean, it just sounds like a solution that was there right in front of us using things like carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, all these things that are just there. I mean, how come no one else has really gone down this route and and done something similar?

Speaker 2
Yeah, no, it's a great story. So the I think it took, honestly, I think it took a creative genius to get us there. And polymer science has been around outside of textiles aside from again, fibres are polymers, right. So they're extended polymers that are being extruded. But outside of that we really haven't brought the the benefits of polymer science which have been well plumbed outside of the textile industry, to the textile industry. And I think the reason why this inventor, Dr. Gary salwen was had the aha moment is because he was Also one of the people who invented what a technology called plasma. And plasma, it was a way to fix particles and chemistries to the outside or the exterior of a fabric. And he did this in the early 2000s, at Los Alamos National Lab. So I think it clued him into the idea that if you can bond things permanently to a fibre, you can change how the fibres work. And it does, but I can't tell you how many times I've been asked that question. It's like, well, why hasn't anyone else figured this out? And the question is, you know, maybe no one's just put the pieces of one and one together to make two, it's it is a really simple solution. And I also think that, you know, as I look at business, and I look at our industry, as we, as we start to solve problems, the problems need to be, or the solutions need to be simple, they have to be easy to understand, they have to be easy to adopt that be easy to implement. And, and that's part of what a solution in this industry is going to take. It has to have, be well thought out. And it can't be overly complicated or difficult to implement, because the cost of changing the industry is already, you know, there's a tonne of capital investment in wet finish, what finishing machinery in the world? So it isn't, it's an interesting question. And it's, in fact, I think it's a critical element of the success of both art technology. And I think technology, the future simplicity.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. I mean, I attended an event not long ago, and the general consensus was agreed with you. It's all about simplicity. But there was the 20 thought, well, if we're going to shake up materials anyway, let's shake up the entire process. But I do think that's an you know, it's just not realistic, or you've got all this infrastructure. I mean, it just makes sense that if you can do something sustainably and utilise what's already here, I mean, that's sort of the best of both worlds, isn't it really? 

Speaker 2
Well, I think that's an important part that we've also learned from a business aspect that I'd love to share with whoever's out there and trying to also make a change in this space is, as we thought about what kind of business model we wanted to create, we started listening carefully to the brands and to consumers. And what we what we recognised, you know, again, we started into the sustainability space, before sustainability was a requirement from consumers to brands, right. Six years ago, consumers were just starting to come into this space. And brands had, you know, consistently, I would hear from brands saying, well, all our consumers want is performance, they don't really care about the environment, and we can't sell the environment. And I think that's still true today. People don't buy sustainability, people buy products. And so as we start thinking about what does, what does this solution look like? Well, what we've boiled it down to is our products deliver the best performance, or the best quality or the best handfeel on the market. So if we can't be the best, then we don't do it. And therefore, when you buy our products, you're not buying sustainability, it's the the benefit of having a great product is that it's efficient. It's efficiently. It's efficient use of raw materials. And the benefit of that efficiency is sustainability. So we have tried to build a business model that we sell performance, we sell quality, we sell innovation, we don't sell sustainability, but every single thing that we do promote sustainability, because we won't compromise in that one aspect of innovation.

Speaker 1
Well, yeah, that's exactly it, isn't it? I mean, I've heard people say the same thing. And what about cost as well? Does it make the final product more expensive? Because again, that's people that I think people are willing to pay a little bit more for something that's sustainable, but not not significantly more? 

Speaker 2
Well, that's a really interesting question. There's, I think about three or four answers to it that I can, that I would talk about. One is, when you think about innovation, and you think about products, essentially, if we were to take just our waterfree or our PFC free deep water repellency, for example, because the performance of that product is so far, so uniform, and so powerful. It is the best product in the market, bar none. We've tested every single ca c six c zero product in the market against ours, and not one even comes close. And the reason is, again, we use that pressure to make it uniform. And that uniformity creates a tremendous amount of hydrophobicity surface tension. And so what happens is we're actually able to take products that you typically could not wear into the rain without a plastic membrane behind it. And all of the At a cost of adding membranes, and you can wear them into the rain now. So, for example, we, you know, we've worked with Jack wolfskin to produce fleece that you could wear into the rain. And fleece is the idea of a, you know, hoodie, for example that you wear into the rain is when no one wears a hoodie into the rank. But it's this idea of Okay, would you buy a hoodie, that, that you could wear 98% of the time and gives you most of the protection that you need, and a hoodie cost much less than a outerwear rain jacket. So if you were to spend, you know, two to $5 more on your hoodie, that takes you to 98% of that environmental condition for protection, the upcharge. And that is really not you're actually saving money. And then as those as it relates to actual cost of production. So, again, we have no cleanup in our process. There is no effluent water to be cleaned up, there is no excess chemistry, there is no chemistry wasted. There's no gas byproducts that's that's, that comes from this, our water is recycled through the process. So the tremendous amount of savings, which we're trying to quantify right now, because people want to know, it's not just $1 savings, it's also a carbon saving, we're saving energy by reducing the number of steps that go into this process. So there's a a cost to the environment savings as well. And then as it relates to, for example, water free, water free die. This is obviously one of our major efforts currently as a company, because of the opportunity to make a change to the environment and to the to the industry. And what I found out talking to the dye houses globally was that 50% of the cost attached to dyeing fabrics is the cleanup of a fluid water. And so again, if we have no effluent water, and no post treatment, cleaning to clean off any excess dye, we just reduce the cost by 50%, before we ever started, so our cycle times are shorter, our cleanup is less. And we're quantifying those savings. So we think that we're at least caught cost neutral and potentially cost saving. In the long run, especially gosh,

Speaker 1
Wow. Well, I mean, it sounds like you know, a wonder product at the moment what you've come up with? Do you mind me asking them where you are in your journey? I mean, you've said you've already worked with like Jack wolfskin. You've been around for about six years? I mean, you still considered a startup or I mean, where are you at with it?

Speaker 2
That's a great question. So in our journey, we we've made some strategic plays that I think have panned out fairly well. So we set up a Innovation Lab in the United States in Albuquerque. And that's our own laboratory. And the investment partners that we brought into that company were people, one of the companies for examples named Phoenix Venture Partners. And they are experts in material science with a focus on sustainability, you know, so we brought in these investment partners who understand the space understand long term investment. And then in detention, we opened up a commercialization centre that we own in Taiwan. And we did it because Taiwan is a pretty good epicentre for innovation in Asia, where a lot of textile technology is being developed and brought forward. We're now and where do we sit right now in this whole process, so we were able to bring in a large amount of investment to get us off the ground to start all these technologies to bring in our people. We've got about, I want to say 30 to 35 employees, it seems to be growing daily, now. And we have started signing up licensees. So mills around the world are adopting our technology into their process. And what's great about our business plan is we really understood that if we wanted to make a change, we were not going to be able to hold on to it. In fact, just the opposite. We need to let this go. And the best way to do that was to licence the technology into the supply chains at the major brands globally. And that's what we're doing currently. So we're working on projects in the Middle East. We're working in projects in Southeast Asia, we're working in projects in China, we're working in projects in the United States, and we have licences for example. One of the more recent ones we just signed was y k k. So why pick k is the largest Dipper manufacturer in the world. It's a they have I think 15 manufacturing sites around the globe. And they have adopted our technology and are implementing it globally as as the supplier for essentially zippers at this point in time. And so they they've they've also felt that in our process kind of where we are we are I wouldn't call us a star Not anymore, I would call us a an emerging technology now, globally, and with key global print Brand Partners of premium quality, both in the fashion industry, which is fascinating. The fashion industry has also been fully engaged in this space. We started in the outdoor market, because the outdoor market was most concerned about the environment. So we strategically picked that market to start with. But since that time, we're now working on major footwear projects. We're able to solve problems for the footwear industry that no one else can solve, because of the durability of our product. We're working, like I've said, on so many different projects around the world that are truly amazing. So it's, it's a lot of fun. It's kind of it's emerged to something that we never, we didn't dream that we could make a change. But we are making a change now and the industry is coming along, we've had to kind of drag them kicking and screaming, but they are coming along and they and they see it as an advantage because it's a better product. And that's the key if you make a better product. The brands are interested because it gives them an opportunity to make new products and innovation. You know, it's what everyone is looking for, you know, the latest and greatest gadget. Well, if the latest and greatest greatest gadget is efficient, it's also sustainable. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1
So I mean, what sort of time span are we looking at then to see your technology and products on the shelves? I mean, are there there must be a couple there already, if you said about Jack wolfskin. But I mean, yeah,

Speaker 2
yes, absolutely. Sorry for being so broad in my answer, I let me be more specific. So in in 2020, for example, we partnered with black diamond, and we won the and so they have a wide variety of our products in their product line, all and we're working on everything from climbing ropes for them. So this is a again, this is a premium brand who's known for saving people's lives. And so they, they really were interested in a product that would work extremely well. That's what their brand is known for is something that works. So in 2019 and 2020. And in 2021. We are excuse me in 2020, we won both in Europe, and in the United States, the awards for the best water repellent products, we did that at Expo and we did that outdoor retailer, it's done every year, it's kind of the US equivalent to Expo. And so those were kind of the two biggest awards that you could win. In addition, we've been in every REI store in the United States. With some of our products, we are currently partnering with major brands, which you are very familiar with to bring products to market currently. So we're on the we're in the market currently, we have a wide variety of, you know, from anywhere from work wear to sport brands, and I try not to divulge too much information before they release their own press. But I can tell you about things where they're more more visible, such as the y2k deal, and and as a recent licensee, for example. 

Speaker 1
Right. Okay. I'll have to keep an eye out then. But I mean, will you be on like a hang tag? I mean, will the consumer even know that? You know, you guys are behind it? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. So and that's part of our business model is one of the things that's difficult just about the business side is when innovation comes to the marketplace. Brands are so busy building products, it's very difficult for them to have enough marketing space to explain technology. Similarly, mills are so busy just turning product out, they don't have the ability to tell the story. And yet consumers are really interested in why am I making this purchase, and people care. And they're, they're voting with their dollars. So to that end, we we basically created all of the marketing that the brands and mills would need and the impel trade name which we registered globally, is its, it is what we attach on the hang tag. And it goes actually on the garments and the meals are promoting this technology as impel and the brands are promoting this technology as a value add to their products. So it actually increases the value to the consumers. And we're actually getting a lot of traction in Europe and the United States with our brand. 

Speaker 1
Well, that's good to hear them because they so many of these companies are an ingredient brands for example that you just don't get enough credit, I think anyway, but there we are. So So I mean, these are the 17 Odd projects that you've got on the go that you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast. So I mean, what's the time span for those and the waterless dyes and so on?

Speaker 2
Well, we were hoping to come to market in the end of 2022, that is actually have a product on the in market in 2022, for waterfree. Dye. We are similarly, again, these are all at various stages of development. But that's certainly a big target. It's very interesting, one of the major partners that we're working with, is actually building dye houses in the Middle East. Obviously, there's not a tonne of water floating around the Middle East. And yet they have a lot of labour supply and a fairly good amount of intellectual property to develop textiles. So that's one one project that we're working on with a timeline. We're working, for example, with major footwear companies. And you know, the top within the top five, so you, obviously you know, them. And our goal is to, we're starting to move into field trials currently with them, we've gone through, when you work with large brands, and they have giant supply chains, and there have you know, multibillion dollar companies. It's like it to get those companies, it's like moving Antarctica, right, you know, I'm sorry, moving the glacier of the North Pole somewhere, it's just a huge amount of efforts. So you have to go through five and six hurdles. And to get to field trials is our next goal for some of these, these brands, we hope to be in field trials for footwear, particularly by the end of this year, which would then again, depending on how quickly they want to bring product out, we we hopeful to have product in the market for footwear for 2022 We're working with have to be careful, we're working with some people for improving, like I said, ballistics that's currently in the in the testing phase. So again, if it goes well, we will probably come out with that product in this next year. The FR portion of our products that we're working on, that's in testing at this current time to validate everything, I would hope that we would come out with a product for that that space is next year. So we have a lot of things emerging. Aside from our base, water repellent product, probably I would say you would see a lot of that technology rolling out to the market in this in 2022. 

Speaker 1
So you've got quite an exciting future ahead of you, then by the sounds of it.

Speaker 2
A lot of sleepless nights in long bays.

Speaker 1
Wow, you know, if it's going to contribute to a better performing more sustainable industry, then it will pay off later.

Speaker 2
And, you know, I think that's that's the that's one of the crux of what we're trying to accomplish. You know, it's a big industry. And I think that if we're, if we look at it holistically as a community, that there's a lot of problems to solve. And I think there's a lot of opportunity as we develop products for that market space. And I think that the idea of waterfree finishing is it's inevitable, whether it's using our product or some other means to do it. Water is really an antiquated solvent. It's not efficient. In particularly, for example, in the dye process, when you dye fabrics, essentially, you put them into large vessels, and you run the vessels for an extended period of hours, using tonnes of energy. And then all that water that's that doesn't stick the dye into the fabric is just wastewater that has to be either cleaned or released. And I've been into China and the information given to me by the Mills was that 30% They're required to clean up 30% of their water. And then the rest of the water is shipped to government owned facilities. Now, what does that mean? I'm not sure of what how the government treats that water but I'm I'm suspicious that some of that water makes it way into the ocean or makes it into waterways. And you know that this dry finishing process as a concept and as for the future for all of us. It's inevitable, in my opinion. Water Based finishing is extremely inefficient, extremely sloppy. And it also the the other part that's a little bit scary about it in our research is that because things chemistries are not fixed well to fibres, they have a tendency to leech and so as we're wearing our clothing, there's a certain amount of bleaching that occurs onto our body. And you know, people are not aware read this, I think as we become more aware of toxicity with chemistry in our in our own body, and we're going to be finding out that, you know, water based chemistry and water based finishing, in general is something to be avoided if we were just not there yet. But again, the main point is waterfree is absolutely the future, whether it's through our technology or other technologies.

Speaker 1
That's really interesting, actually. Well, Martin, I mean, unfortunately, we're running out of time. There's plenty of other questions I could probably ask you, but just to just lastly, then to follow up on what you've just said, I mean, are you hopeful that the industry is heading to a more sustainable future? I mean, what else is sort of needed to really, you know, get us there? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, I actually am extremely helpful. Because we are in the middle of, of this project, for example, we've been working with UNEP un United Nations Environmental Protection Group, and they're trying to do test projects to prove that this type of technology is not just sustainable, but it's also viable for emerging countries and emerging marketplaces. And the other thing that makes me extremely helpful is the fact that consumers are, are forcing this change. And ultimately, brands have to go what, where consumers drive the market, and consumers are saying, it's not, it's not a nice to have, it's a requirement for the future, that we expect our brands to provide us with products that will be good for the planet, and will protect the future. And so if nothing else, market conditions are demanding a change, and the brands and mills are adopting those changes, and we are growth as a company in our and the adoption of our technology globally, is just an example of what's going on in the in the broader market space. So I am extremely hopeful, and I feel very confident that we are are moving it's I think the pace could be faster. And I think the pace needs to be faster for the changes recently. I don't know if you know that in Portland, Oregon, which rarely gets above you know, 30 C, maybe 90 degrees Fahrenheit, we recently experienced 115 Fahrenheit, which was an all time record, and it's sustained over three days. And it burnt a lot of our beautiful lush forests and greenery that we adore so much in this Pacific Northwest. And to me, that's a tap on the shoulder by mother nature that says Hey, guys, you guys need to make some changes. And I think people are listening. I think I think Mother Nature as well as people's awareness has, is going to bring us to a good place. And I'm also optimistic about the young people who are moving into this space. And they seem to have a sense of urgency that is not selfish about just putting dollars in their pocket. It's about actually really making a change for a sustainable long term. Lifestyle. That's, that's holistic. So yeah, I'm extremely optimistic, not just for our technology, but for the planet as well. 

Speaker 1
Oh, well, that's a good note to end on, isn't it? Anyway, I'm I love hearing when others are optimistic, because it get obviously gives me that optimism as well, because you do read the good, the bad, and it's always kind of like where do you think that industry will will realistically head so you know, that was a very good note to end on.

Speaker 2
No good. And I'm glad to leave a positive note.

Speaker 1
Well, Martin, I mean, as I said, that's all the questions we have time for today, I'm afraid but it's been so great to have you on the show today. And thank you so much for telling me about the impel platform and I'm just really excited to sort of follow you guys and see how you progress. So thank you very much. 

Speaker 2
Sure.  Feel free to pick up the phone anytime and to hear how things are going. We're happy to do that.