Ep. 79: Commercialising bio-based nylon Ankit Podcast

This transcription has been AI generated and therefore may have some inaccuracies.

Ep. 79: Commercialising bio-based nylon

The last guest on this year’s The WTiN Podcast is Lisa Kennedy, vice president of strategic partnerships at Genomatica.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Lisa Kennedy

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen, and I'm part of the team here at WTiN. And this is the WTiN podcast. Join me and my guests every month as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. For this last podcast of the year, I am joined by Lisa Kennedy, who is the Vice President of Strategic Partnerships at Genomatica. Lisa talks about the company's bio based processes such as bio nylon, and how companies such as Lululemon are helping to commercialise this sustainable alternative.

Well, hello, Lisa, and welcome to the WTA and podcast all the way from San Diego as I understand so how are you?

Speaker 2
I'm doing great. How are you doing today?

Speaker 1
Yes, I'm all right. Thank you. I'm sure it's much nicer in San Diego than it is in miserable old England, though at the moment.

Speaker 2
You'd be surprised actually, in fact, today's a rainy day, but it's a rare, it's a rare rainy day. Right.

Speaker 1
Okay. I mean, you're getting in the Christmas spirit. Yeah. I mean, what's life like?

Speaker 2
Absolutely. You have just a few weeks before Christmas, I have a little toddler. So it's hard not to it's extra fun time of the year. So I'm definitely enjoying every moment leading up to the holidays. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, they say Christmas is all about the children, don't they say? Oh, that must be lovely. Well, I mean, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I mean, as we were talking before this, I attended performance days virtually the other week. And Eric from genomatica was talking on a panel that so it's really good to sort of finally talk about, you know, bio nylon and your other endeavours today. So yeah, thank you very much joining me,

Speaker 2
thank you. I appreciate being here. And very grateful for the opportunity to talk a little bit more about genomatica and what we're doing in the world of textiles.

Speaker 1
Yes, yes. So I mean, first question, then. I mean, what does genomatica do? Exactly? And how did the company start out? Because, as I understand that you guys have actually been around for about 20 years. And you've worked on this by a nylon, as I've mentioned, but I heard that you actually began life sort of in in plastics and cosmetics.

Speaker 2
Yeah, we've had a really long history and and certainly the company has evolved, as you mentioned, well over 20 years, you know what we were. So we're based here in San Diego, California. And, you know, we've been thinking over the years that there's a significant opportunity to really rethink and redesign how we make our stuff. And at genomatica, we harness synthetic biology to remake key ingredients that are used in everyday products through a clean manufacturing. And so some of this clean manufacturing, more specifically getting kind of honed in is using biotechnology and fermentation to turn naturally derived ingredients such as sugar into those chemical building blocks used to make more sustainable materials and deliver on the technologies even at commercial scale.

Speaker 1
I said, What was your first product then? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, so the first product that we started developing is a chemical called one four butane dial. It's a mouthful. And in short, we call it BDO. And so BDO was the first process technology that was developed at genomatica and it's made from renewable resources, as I mentioned, like sugar. We've licenced this technology so we've developed it here in San Diego. We've scaled it up with number of partners and then we've licenced it to chemical companies and no Beaumont has been the first company they're an Italian based organisation. And many years ago, they took a licence and they began manufacturing in northeastern Italy and they now produce over 30,000 tonnes of year mostly used for captive use BDO for them for Nova Ma is used mainly for for biodegradable plastics or single use plastic bags, for example. But BDO is also a very critical ingredient for a number of other applications, such as an ingredient that ends up making spandex fibre. So it's very large markets. Traditionally BDO is fossil fuel based and so now we have the opportunity through our technology to make that same chemical from renewable sources of carbon and One other thing, interesting element of this business is we've have another licensee that's currently building a manufacturing plant in the United States. It's Cargill, and Helm. So Cargill is traditionally an agriculture company. And helm is a traditional chemical distributor. out of, even though they have a global footprint, they're based out of Europe. And so they've announced second, or excuse me, a plant, a commercial plant, which is expected to come online in the Midwest for about 100,000 tonnes of bio based video. Right. So this is just another point of a point of the technology and validation of the markets as there's continued interest in more of these renewable ingredients.

Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's interesting because scale when it I mean, anyone who listens to this podcast knows that the startups I've spoken to scale is usually the issue. But if you're producing on our level, then you know, you guys are really doing quite well.

Speaker 2
You're absolutely right. I mean, there's the first challenge is getting the technology to work. And then absolutely, then realising that at scale, and so we've certainly don't get me wrong, it theoretically, it sounds simple, but in practice, it definitely has its challenges. But we've been able to work really closely with partners to understand how to scale and to apply those learnings now into the next generation of technologies that we bring to market. Right.

Speaker 1
Okay. And this Gino BDO, then you're saying it can be used for spandex? So are we talking, you know, like the spandex leotards and stuff, you know, textile applications?

Speaker 2
Exactly, exactly. So BDO is a precursor to another chemical called THF, which is then used as the key raw material to make elastin fibres, and so absolutely accurate. So biobased BDO can now go into be one of the core building blocks to make elastane or spandex fibres for the market.

Speaker 1
Okay, interesting. I mean, I've not actually had a lot of innovation in that area, people were talking about the polyester and the nylon, and even cotton and things. But I hadn't realised that such progress was being made in the spandex area. I mean, was that quite difficult to achieve? I mean, how long has it taken is has it taken the full 20 years to get to this point?

Speaker 2
I glad to say it has not, I think I mean, innovation does take time and commitment. It has the company has evolved in terms of the business itself, and also developing the core technology platform that enables then the specific development of these technologies, for example, for BDO. So the BDO journey took us about five years from conception until completion or validation at scale. As we now apply those learnings similarly to the learnings that we've we've had with BDO, from a scale up perspective, we're applying all those learnings to the next generation of technologies we're developing such as bio nylon ingredients. And so our view is that we should now be able to further accelerate those timelines by using those learnings as well as partnering with key players across the value chain or supply chain to bring these products to market.

Speaker 1
Okay, right. And I mean, before we sort of talk about bio nylon, I understand this in other products sort of in this area. And is that beauty beauty Dean?

Speaker 2
That's right. I know these chemical terminologies and names are a mouthful. Yep, you practically had it. It's butylene glycol. And, and so if this is actually a great story, from an acceleration timing perspective, so this is our second commercial product, we were able to it's basically the first ones one for butane dial, this one is one three butane dials. So there's clearly some similarities. But ultimately, that subtle change creates a very different opportunity in different marketplace for this other chemical. In fact, we have a trade name for it. It's called Braun tide. And it's a naturally sourced ingredient that is used as an ingredient mainly in the cosmetic industry. So it's a humectant. It causes and allows for very soft moisture feeling in use in a number of different applications related to personal care. So genomatica applied, again, the learnings and we're able to quickly demonstrate a process that produced biobased butylene glycol, we've established direct sales with with companies to supply this key ingredients. We have a distribution network. And so we had slightly shift in business model right, the first video we liked, we developed technology and licence the second, we develop the technology and we are now the producer and supplier to the market. So we have I would say over the years evolved as an organisation have a little bit more fluidity and openness to how we conduct business in the marketplace. And as now we're considering you know, different ways of how we commercialise future technologies such as, for example, nylons, and other ingredients for personal or industrial purposes, as well. As a very deep portfolio. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, it sounds it. I mean, like you just sort of hit the nail on the head, really, I mean, I know you guys have been in this industry for a while, but it's still, you're still learning, this is still a very new area. And like I think every startup, every company that's trying something out here is like just learning as they go along. So as you say, the more products you make, surely the quicker and the better it will, they'll be in theory. 

Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. It absolutely right. And, you know, we're seeing really a shift in the market as well. And so we really see the ability to drive major impact by focusing on widely existing target ingredients as well, and really just substituting the feedstock, right, so instead of fossil fuel based feedstocks, now we're looking at renewable feedstocks, and as exactly as you mentioned, through the last two decades, applying all those learnings into the next type of technologies and products that we're looking to develop and commercialise as well.

Speaker 1
Yes. And then the next project that we're going to come on to then the one that is, well, I'm most intrigued by anyway, is this bio nylon. So I mean, how long has it taken you to find a sustainable alternative to this? I mean, are you using the same feedstock again, or something different?

Speaker 2
It's in fact, same feedstock. So using renewable carbon such as sugar and applying it through our proprietary process, which ultimately is fermentation. It's fermentation based. So if you can imagine going to a brewery or winery, you see the big fermentation tanks. And ultimately, those processes take the carbon from different feedstocks like grapes and provide it with a yeast, which is a micro organism, and it converts that renewable carbon into ethanol. So what we do at genomatica is we're able to engineer microorganisms to effectively convert carbon from renewable resources and convert it to specific ingredients. So you can imagine precursors to nylon or BDO, the example I just provided, and then we ensure beyond the fermentation stage that we apply other parts of the proprietary process that purifies it to meet industry specification. And so ultimately, your results prod the resulting product is the exact same that what you're using today. But again, it's a different feedstock, it's more renewable, it's made more sustainably in a different better way. And so for the nylon story or journey that we've been taking, it started back in about 2017. We, we announced a partnership with Aqua fill, another Italian firm, very well known, innovative company that's focused on nylon fibre materials, such as carpet, fibre and textile fibre. But in addition to that, they developed a really interesting technology called Eco Neil, which is recycled nylon or regenerative nylon. And so they had a lot of know how in innovation around new technology development for nylon, and understanding what the needs and requirements are for the feedstock to make nylon. So it was just a natural fit to like minded companies who were sustainably driven, had innovative like mindset. So we collaborated. So we use technology, the baseline of genomatica and we've worked very closely with Aqua Phil on the downstream portion. So as you can imagine the purification and those steps towards the end of the process. And over the years we've been able to innovate onto the technology, whereby, in fact, we announced about a year ago, our intent to scale the technology to pre commercial scale. So it's something that we call demonstration scale on the technical side, but it really is a pre commercial stage. So it's the final stage before commercialization. And it's a time in which you're producing multi tonne. And you're validating the technology, you're getting in producing enough volume to start working with downstream players to evaluate, get feedback, and maybe do some early pre marketing activities as well. And so that's actually what we're kick starting here in December. And that will carry through into the next maybe just over a year. So most of 22 and perhaps into 23, as well. So it's an exciting time for the technology. And then now, you know, also being able to produce tangible material for our other partners to test and to use.

Speaker 1
Hmm, yeah, I mean, there's so much I want to ask about this. Because I mean, as you said, I think there's already actually announcement with them Lululemon isn't there on this sort of like, now that you can scale you can actually afford to announce collaborations and say how you're going to implement it. But before I sort of go into that a bit more, can I just ask a bit more about the feedstock that you're using? Of course? Well, I asked, because at performance days, a big topic was about whether there's enough sort of alternative feedstocks to support sustainable nylon. So from the recycled nylon point of view, they were saying, Are there enough fishing nets? Are there enough tires, that kind of thing to, to, you know, make it feasible that we could just altogether get rid of, you know, crude oil, nylon and use a sustainable? So I mean, do you foresee any problems with the feedstock you're using? Or do you think it could replace conventional nylon altogether? Perhaps?

Speaker 2
It's a great question to ask because also, bio nylon isn't the only biobased ingredient that looks to get into the market. But there's video, there's also polyester that other companies are working on. So it's absolutely an important topic that needs to be addressed. And, you know, there are generations of feedstock to consider. So you know, what we're looking at at this first generation to get the technology in market is to use first generation feedstock. So it's established industry, there's already a significant amount of available raw material to supply, let's call it the chemical ingredient space, like what genomatica is trying to accomplish. There's also the means of increasing the yield and improving the existing technology. So that's, you know, one particular phase and I will share one, one data point. If we were to build a 50,000 tonne per year plant in the US, I believe the number was point o 5%. of the US renewable material available. So it's very small. Now, we want more than a single plant. Right? So I think the question is more looking in the long run. So I address the first gen or the first generation of what's available today. And then potential improvements. There's also the potential to tap in the second generation. I know there's several companies looking to exploit and make available carbohydrates coming from biomass, for example. And then the third generation is waste. So how can we take either co2 or waste literally municipal solid waste and convert that back into materials. And so genomatica is looking at all possibilities. And we're constantly talking to companies who are in some of these other sectors to see how we can work together to apply the learnings and understanding. So we could keep in mind, you know, the near term opportunity versus the mid and long term. But again, I think it's certainly discussion and conversation that needs to continue to be heard, as it's an important element, I think, for the overall success of the bio economy or the circular economy.

Speaker 1
What I mean, that's quite exciting, actually, that I didn't realise they were quite so many, you know, generations you can rely on for feedstock and, I mean, I guess you could also argue that your company alone isn't having to do it and your cert your method. You have got the aquafil cone alicona. So Good gonial Yeah, that's that's the one they're still gonna have, they're sort of influenced like it's about, you know, mitigating isn't it all your different sources instead of just relying on oil? And that's it? So, no. Okay, that's quite interesting and learn something new today, anyway. Yeah.

Speaker 2
And I mean, I don't expect, you know, once bio nylons available that all of a sudden, we're gonna turn off all the petro plants. It's a process, and it's a journey. And the world needs nylon amongst other materials, you know, for many different purposes. And so, you know, it is an important material. So I think it's how do we balance? And how do we plan for the future, and looking at improvements of existing technologies, and then also, you know, supporting to the new innovations that are coming online, because that's an important element, I think, for the innovation is to have, you know, key partners across the supply chain come together, united to really pull through these innovations to realise them commercially. Yeah.

Speaker 1
Which brings us quite nicely back to this partnership with Lululemon. So, I mean, when I mean, I saw the original press release, and from reading between the lines, I'm imagining like sports leggings, that kind of thing. I mean, are you able to sort of tell us any more about what's going to come out of this collaboration?

Speaker 2
Yeah, of course. So we're very excited to have Lululemon as a strategic partner. You know, as an innovator, and as a company that has traditionally worked with, you know, very closely with chemical companies. This is I think, where we are in an evolution of the marketplace, it's really, leapfrogging, I think us into into the next phase of bringing these innovations to market. You know, nylon is a significant and very critical, important raw material for Lululemon. As they use, they have a wide range of products, like such as you mentioned, pants and, and other materials, or excuse me, products that use it. But nylon represents the most widely used synthetical synthetic material in their portfolio. And if you, you know, they have announced back in 2020, their impact agenda goals, and they're looking to transition nylon that they source to renewable or recycled by 2030. And commit to launching alternative platforms by 2025. And so certainly in the relationship with genomatica, they're making the strides to, I would say, See those objectives through. And so we're working together in a multi year programme, it's certainly for them to gain early access to renewable nylon. But there's also an equity component to the relationship, which is really exciting for us, as it represents Lululemon first equity investment into a sustainable materials company. And so we're excited by it. You know, as I mentioned before, in terms of coming together with Aqua, Phil, similarly, with Lululemon, we have aligned values and objectives. So it, it became really, I would say, there was a nice alignment from the very beginning, you know, we both actively wanted to lead a transition to a more sustainable future. And we're doing it and so we're excited, you know, the journey is just starting, we just made this announcement just a few months back, there's a lot of work to do. But we're thrilled about them being our foundational brand partner in this journey. You know, there are, they're also want to share that, you know, we have big interest to work with others as well, brand owners and other value chain partners. I mentioned, for BDO plant capacity being 30,000 tonne per year with no Vermont and 100,000 time for Cargill. You can imagine for this product, it's going to be somewhere in that range as well. And there's not one single brand that can act that can tap into all that volume. So it's certainly a team or community efforts. So we really want to say to basically the brands and to others, you know, if you'd like to join and participate even at this pre commercial stage, you know, we'd love to work with a number of other companies as well to see and create stories around the use of bio nylon in their products. 

Speaker 1
I mean, I love that. I mean, most of the companies I've spoken to said are you know, we, we can't tap into this because there's not enough to go around and you've got the opposite problem which must be so nice to have quite refreshing actually when it comes to sustainability.

Speaker 2
You Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, just naturally where we are in the stage of our programme, as it going into this next year, targeting to produce multi tonnes, it allows for much greater opportunity because you have now tangible material for companies to work with, which really shifts the way we engage with people and the stories that we can tell. Because I will tell you, I, you know, my family sometimes still doesn't even know what I do. But when I can actually show them a product, and says, you know, like this Lululemon yoga pant is made with nylon, and, you know, our organisation genomatica can make, you know, the building blocks to make nylon now from renewable material, it just, I think there's a creativity and openness to what we do, it becomes more real. And so we're excited to be at this critical point within this journey.

Speaker 1
Yeah, it is important because, as you say that, I mean, there are so many companies because of me doing this job that I know of, so when I walk into a store, I will naturally look at the hang tag to just see, you know, if any of the companies I've interviewed have actually turned up in this product, and I mean, the big ones out there that people know of is like gore tex, and you know, three M thinsulate, and stuff like that. So they're sort of, you know, becoming a bit more well known among consumers. But as you say, like, I don't think half the people realise that someone like genomatica is behind, you know, these sustainable leggings that are you lemon now offers or another brand. So, it is quite exciting for you guys. And as he, as you say, you can actually point something and just show someone what you do, it makes life a lot easier to explain if you can do that. So going back to this relationship, then how I mean, have you made prototypes? Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to work out whether you produce like a pellet, or, or, and how that actually gets either knitted? I mean, what are you learning? In these collaborations? Are you having to tweak your chemistry at all? Or? I mean, what are you? What challenges are you sort of facing at the moment with developing these new products?

Speaker 2
Yeah, no, it's a great question. I, we're constantly learning and applying learnings to further optimise the technology. Because ultimately, we want to drive performance, we want to have the best possible quality, because ultimately, when we hand product over, we want it to work the same with, you know, just ease. And in our partnership with Aqua, Phil, they are very well integrated. So together, we're producing the key raw ingredient for nylon, and then pelletizing it right to produce the resin and then spinning that into fibres for textile and carpet. And working with and plan to work with other organisations to then take that pellet, and perhaps make film because Nylon is used in food packaging, for example, or packaging for other products. It's also used in engineering plastics for automotive applications, or electrical applications, for example. So there's the huge market is in textile. But again, there's this world of other applications that require different performance parameters and qualification than textile. So we'll be working, you know, across a diverse group of companies to apply this into those different products.

Speaker 1
Yeah, that that is one exciting thing about nylon, I think, is that all the trims can be made from nylon as well. So I think there's I can't think off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's a company who's made 100% recycled nylon jacket. And if you can use one material, again, that adds to the sustainability of it, because you don't have to sort all the different components if you want to, you know, give it a second life. So that's sort of another thing that you're well, you're you've got that possibility, which is great. 

Speaker 2
Yeah, you raise a great point. It does. If you can design with the end in mind, in design a product that has 100% nylon six, for example. And that's made from renewable nylon, you can imagine then taking that product and recycling it through eco, Neil. Yeah, like I said, Aqua fills regenitive nylon process. And Nylon is now circular, from the beginning of life story through the end of life, but again, you have to think about the source of the material, and then also the design. So it's becoming a process I think of just being mindful and thoughtful of how products are used and sourced. And, you know, we've been having really intriguing conversations across the The textile world about how to rethink to use nylon and in interesting ways such as that.

Speaker 1
So I mean, how many years do you think it'll be until what we're talking about today becomes realities, it may be 1020, or less than that, more than that.

Speaker 2
You know, our goal is, is less than that, we certainly want to see technology hit the market. In in the next several years, of course, there is the, I would say demonstration of the technology, which will be happening, as I mentioned into next year, but then you'd also think the build out of a commercial facility takes a bit of time as well. So certainly well under 10 years, would be our targets, even less than five. And so we're, we're hoping to have large market presence and building and working with target companies ahead of that in a pre commercial way. Just so that when the commercial facility is up and running, that we're not starting at time zero. And so we know we know it takes time to evaluate and also to begin to market this product. And so that's, that's really what we're trying to establish here going into next year.

Speaker 1
Oh, exciting. I love the fact that in my lifetime, easily. Hopefully, if everything goes according to plan that we'll see all these technologies. I mean, yeah, it's a really interesting time to be in this industry. I think. Now, unfortunately, we're running out of time. But before I have to wrap up and let you go, I mean, it does genomatica have any other plans for 2022? And beyond? Is it is it looking to other sort of solutions in the textile field or elsewhere? I mean, have you got your hands full at the moment, that's enough to get going with?

Speaker 2
Well, we are thinking about the next generation. So Nylon is a very strategic core part of what we're doing at genomatica. In fact, we have technology for other nylons as well, even beyond nylon six. So from other commodity based nylons to specialty, nylons, as well, that have potential impact in that in the world of textile. There are also other materials you could consider that might be applicable when it comes to coatings, or.or dyes that we're thinking through and exploring within genomatica. And so I'd also say one of the elements that's important as we consider what goes through our pipeline. You know, we of course, look at the technical fit, as well as economic, but then the market interest. And so it's always very important that we invite, you know, the discussions, you know, across industries to say what's important to the, to an industry to look at either a new way of process to process an ingredient, or make it more sustainable. And so again, just welcome those conversations with the audience. It's a very critical part, I think of our process. And we certainly think that now at this moment, it's, it's the right time, and we're really trying to make a positive impact in the world and how we think about materials.

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, as I said, Lisa, we're running out of time, unfortunately. But I mean, thank you so much for coming on the show and telling us all about the innovative work that you're doing at genomatica. I mean, we'll have to keep an eye on you guys. There's clearly a lot in the pipeline. So I mean, thank you again and all the best for New Year.

Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me. It was a lot of fun and appreciate a great conversation.