Ep. 55: New Cotton Project: Demonstrating an achievable circular model Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 55: New Cotton Project: Demonstrating an achievable circular model

This week on The WTiN Podcast we speak to Petri Alava, CEO of Infinited Fiber Company, who is representing a new EU-funded scheme called New Cotton Project.

Jessica Owen
Hello. My name is Jessica Owen, and I am the Deputy digital editor at WTiN, and this is the WTiN podcast.

Over the next few weeks, I'll be talking to organizations about the topic of textile recycling. This is one of the most important solutions to the industry's waste and sustainability problems. So tune in to learn about new industry initiatives to create circular fashion upcoming textile recovery technologies. How best to communicate sustainability to consumers and much more. This week, I am joined by Petri Oliver, the CEO of infinitive fiber, who is representing a new EU funded scheme called the new cotton project. Here he talks about the project's three year plan and how there's a readiness for sustainable change, but the challenges lie in capacity, capability and finding that all important capital.

Well, good morning, Petri, thank you very much for joining me today. Are you well, how is the new year treating you so far?

Petri Alava
Yeah, I'm just trying it. It's really nice. It's a proper winter time here in Finland, and really enjoyable. We've got some snow and cold air, so really enjoying the winter time.

Jessica Owen
Good, good. Sounds lovely. So you are, in fact, the co founder and CEO of infinitive fiber company, but you're here today to actually talk about a new scheme called the new cotton project. Do you mind just telling me, then, first of all about yourself and what your role is within this new scheme, right?

Petri Alava
So as you can introduce Mark myself. So I'm the CEO and co founder of infinity fiber company, and we were the ones. So the the it was the team off of infinity fiber company who invented this, this project, and I was one. I was part of the the invent, inventing team who got the idea of of this. My role was probably, at that time, more kind of of believer, from from a personality point of view, I'm a very optimistic person. So I was believing that this kind of project can be made true. So that was my, my role that I was supporting and pushing very much. And now, as it's as it's an EU funded project, of course, my role is then being one of the coordinators of the whole project, and then also being part of of the of the management team of the whole project. So if something kind of anticipated, things would be coming out, then the management team is taking the role and trying to steer the project again. I didn't

Jessica Owen
actually realize that it was you guys who had the idea. I wasn't sure whether it was like an EU thing or so. So why did you want to start this project? Then, right?

Petri Alava
So the that that comes to the the very nature of of the company, infinity fiber. So as we have created a new technology, it's, it's a kind of called chemical recycling technology, which, which means that that we can produce with our technology, new high quality textile fibers, with with with looks and feels like cotton, original cotton. And we are capable of using different waste streams. We are using textile waste, collective from the consumers, industrial textile waste, even cardboard waste or paper waste and agricultural waste. So we're kind of fulfilling the idea of circular economy. And the the idea was born from, from the from the challenge, what, what this kind of technologies are facing, that the textile industry is not, it's not very innovative. It's been kind of working on, on the on the volume and cost mode for for, for last 2030, years. And we were facing the challenge that, the that how to put the innovation through in the in this, this industry? Because we just we recognize in the very beginning that we need the commitment of the brands, the leading brands. We need the commitment of their their supply chain. We need also the kind of waste collection industry on board. And we were struggling that that how to get this, this through, how to get, get funding, because it's also high volume industry. So the kind of technology development demonstration is, is relatively, relatively expensive. Also to be to be done. So we were coming out that, okay, this would be one way of financing this, and also getting the companies involved without having to ask, let's say, high, high kind of investments from from their side. And we also that thought that that this would be a brilliant idea, and brilliant way of getting the because full supply chain, the full value chain. Involved in this kind of operation and testing it, getting, getting born with the idea, getting used to it, and then, then having the capability to scale it up, also the commercial scale. 

Jessica Owen
Okay, so you actually, I think I read that you started your infinitive fiber company in 2016 and when did you have the idea for this? Then was it like as soon as you sort of started that company.

Petri Alava
No, actually we, we got the idea in 2019 so. But say, if you kind of briefly look at that, what's the history of us, and maybe that, that also describes the challenge what we are discussing about, because they the innovation development started already in the 1990s and it was taking, say, 20 years to come up with the relevant ideas and relevant concept which, which could be taken further. And I started developing this, this business in 2015 and then established the company 2016 and the kind of of what happened in between 2016 and 2019 was that that we were having a lot of very, very good discussions with the with the brand companies like hm or Adidas or pbh, and they were all enthusiastic. But the as they really didn't have experience, or they didn't have the kind of tradition that how to work with innovation, innovations, new innovations, and kind of start companies, because they were just used to that innovation, saw, if any are coming from, from their existing suppliers. So it was really something very, very new to those companies to work with. And then the secondary problem was that that they were not used to pay for for this kind of innovation. So they didn't, they didn't know how to work with us, and then we just had to be innovative again. So it's not only about the innovativeness with the technology, we also had to innovate the our business model, how to go to the market. And that's that's how the idea of proposing this kind of project to EU was was born, that this would be one way of getting it done.

Jessica Owen
Okay? And so the project has now begun. So tell me a bit more about it then I think there are about 12 organizations involved now. So what's the plan?

Petri Alava
Yeah, so the that that also describes the the kind of magnitude of the problem. So as I said in the beginning, that that we really needed to have, also the waste management companies that kind of for textile waste collectors on on board, so that the now we have our Franken, who is from from Holland, who's collecting the textile waste from their their existing sources. They are shredding the material which, which means that they are kind of physically trading the material apart, and I'm making art relatively short and loose for us. Then we have an academia in Finland who's testing our technology and seeing whether they could be also improving it to clean the material. Because one of the of the things with the tech, when using textile waste, or any anyways, is that you always need to be starting to clean the material, because it can be kind of it's a mixture of different materials involved. There are different kind of surface treatments in the in the textiles you so the first part is that that we have to be cleaning the material away from from the from the non wanted particles. Then the material is delivered to us, and we are regenerating new textile fiber of the material, which we are then supplying to the yarn spinners. We have a Portuguese yarn spinner and Turkish the yarn spinner. They are making different kind of yarns. Then they are supplying the yarns to the fabrics for the users. Then it goes to the brands who are designing the clothing out of these materials. Then it goes to their garment manufacturers. It goes to the retail and then at the end of the project, it goes, hopefully, it we have enough time that we also have the time time to test that how the collection is working, so that we are collecting back the materials and textiles, what we are producing. And then we have also academia on board. So the role of academies is also making the environmental assessment, kind of comparing this kind of circular economy impacts to the existing material use. And then the other academies is also looking at from from the innovation and kind of systematic perspective, seeing that, are there some, some information gaps? Do we need to somehow reinvent even, even kind of new economic model or business models to make this, this kind of more profitable and that sort of thing. So there's a very, very interesting combination of different skills. And at the end of the day, we just wanted to be the having the different companies, testing the value chain, testing how it performs, so that that we are really ready for, for scaling, and then also finding if there's some some new innovation. Needed, or if there are some some, some details, improvements needed to make this, this industry practice.

Jessica Owen
Well, I mean, you really have COVID, sort of every aspect of the supply chain, and each company obviously, then has its own sort of part to play. Did you know of all these companies that are on board, and was it easy to get them involved in this? Or were they a bit skeptical?

Petri Alava
Yes. Say, the we knew we knew them, also the we somehow we've been discussing and working together with these companies or in before are and then the question, Was it difficult to get on board? Say, the many of them were kind of afraid of EU project. It doesn't sound very nice. It sounds bureaucratic. So I think that was the hesitation from the companies that that how bureaucrat bureaucratic is. And does it really kind of is it is kind of of good, good cost, cost benefit, and is it worthwhile spending the resources, resources needed for for the project administration. But otherwise, I think the the everybody was was thrilled, and just just, if you've kind of kind of compare this with, with my history in this, in these industries, that everybody has been really thrilled about the ideas the industry has been warning these, these new materials, they what they have been wanting to, to change systematically, the industry. So there has been always goodwill about it. And then it was more like really consideration that that is this the right way of working. But, yeah, it wasn't actually that that long. Say it was. We were probably discussing for a month, for one and a half months with the with this, this company. So it wasn't that kind of long with some companies. Of Of course, it was more like a legal issue that that's the that challenge, as there are also very big corporations involved, like Adidas and hm, that it might be their legal departments which, which are getting hesitate, hesitant.

Jessica Owen
So, I mean, is it fair to say, then that these companies sort of represent the wider industry and everyone else, that lots of people have sustainability on their I don't want to say to do list, but they've got it in mind, but they just don't know where to start. They're just, it's just a bit overwhelming. And then something like this, a project such as this, can just help, maybe kick things off. 

Petri Alava
Yeah, I think the if you look like that, the I think, particularly in Europe, we have a kind of offer very good understanding, or the consumers, the people have already very good understanding that that we need to do, we need to do, to change the behavior and the retailers, the brand companies, have also recognized for for a long time already, that that that they need to be finding the new ways to to deliver the solutions what the consumers are wanting to buy, the people are wanting to buy. But the as the as the industry has been so cost and volume driven that it hasn't been used to the innovation. Because the technology, what we are now have created, is the new fiber innovation in 30 years. So there hasn't been any fiber innovation for 30 years in the global textile industry, which is kind of amazing. So the it's just that the there has not been a tradition in this industry to come up with it, with the new solutions, and it's been a very exciting learning for for everybody that how to how to make this happen.

Jessica Owen
And because, obviously, this is been well on your website, this project has been called a world first. So again, like, how come it's taken so long? Does it? Has it just taken one person such as yourself, and you described yourself as a believer and an optimist, and you have, you know, expertise in this industry as well, which is incredibly useful. Has it just taken someone like yourself to say, no, come on. We need to. We need to really start trying,

Petri Alava
kind of a few. But it's not about me. Say the this has been really excellent theme for say the I would love to compare to the automotive industry, where it was needed Elon Musk to come with the electric driven art, but say the this industries is so much more complex. So it's the value chain, the supply chain is so long, so long, that it really needs the involvement of these, these excellent brand companies like hm, Adidas, their suppliers, their manufacturers, wage management companies. So this really has been requiring the commitment and the kind of inspirement of the of people from each of these companies. So it's not, not about me. So of Of course, it needs always somebody who's believing on things and wants to be pushing through these things. But there has been. Strong belief everywhere, so I wouldn't be putting that much effort on myself in just one one part of the puzzle.

Jessica Owen
Yeah. Well, as you say, it's a very complex system, but I mean, so this is a three year plan, then at the moment, do you think it's going to be easy, or do you think there's going to be quite a few challenges along the way. Yeah, so the,

Petri Alava
I don't think that this project will be that that challenging. Of course, the devil is in detail sometimes. So I'm sure that that will be learning also some some new things. And the, I think the, the biggest thing is here that that that people are just getting the confidence say the this is a new the new material, as I said, that the fiber, what we are making, is looking and feeling exactly like cotton. So everybody says, thrill about it. But nobody has using the material in this scale. So I think that that that's really about it, that that the the designers in the brand companies, they get used it. They get to love to it. They have the opportunity to bring the products to the market so that the consumers are are really getting used to it. So it's kind of I think the key thing here is, is that that we get the trust that nobody needs to be making any compromise. They can buy exactly the same kind of clothing they liked, because the clothing is about expressing themselves. So the people just getting the confidence, hey, I can buy the the the clothes, the fashion, what I want to be using to express myself without making any compromise, and it can still kind of having a very positive impact on the nature and the environment. So I think that that's about it. And then then kind of learning little things, how the collection has to be made, what's kind of, kind of for sorting on we need to be kind of progressing, what's, what's the kind of offer for fiber length needed, and that sort of very detailed things, what we'll be just, just to be learning and adapting. But then I think the next thing is the challenge that how we get this scale into the commercial scale? I think the that's where we need to be finding the solutions. Okay?

Jessica Owen
And as you said there, this is this project. And Infinites fiber, you focus on producing new cotton. Why did you decide to focus on this? I mean, obviously there's a lot of people out there who are doing sort of recycled polyester, nylon from fishing nets and things. So how come you've decided to focus on new cotton? 

Petri Alava
Yeah, it's about the nature of our technology, and it's also also about the lack of innovations on the cellulosic fiber side, because ad, there has been kind of innovations on how to recycle polyester. Unfortunate truth is that it's, it's typically made only from, from the kind of polyester bottles there. I haven't really seen in scale the fiber to fiber recycling on, on the on the polyester side, or also the fiber side. But the thing is that when, when we discuss, when you discuss, while the the and look at the cell OC fiber side, which means cotton or or viscose, type of fibers there, there hasn't been recycling in place. So of course, we saw that, that that's that's an opportunity. And then the The other issue is that that the what we found exciting, is that our technology is really able to produce fiber which, which really looks and feels like cotton, and there hasn't been anything like that on the markets yet. And I think the that's one of the key things, where the brand companies see the big advantage being able to replace virgin cotton, because cotton is a snow known to have a pretty bad environmental impact. It's a very thirsty crop. It takes, say, some 1000s of liters of fresh water to grow the cotton, needy for one single t shirt. It also takes awfully a lot of chemistry to grow the cotton. You need a lot of pesticides, for example, and then say, I'd rather, rather see the the farmlands. But we're today using to grow cotton to be used for, for growing food, for people. So the, I think the that's the that's really the thing where the brand companies, textile industry, sees the big opportunity that we have that capability to replace cotton, and I think also that the consumers, because cotton is lovely material. It's really soft, it's natural. It is something what you like to wear close to your skin. So they are, say, a very logical demand from consumers to also allow the the cotton, instead of of using plastics, because they polyester. It's about plastics. It's excellent for for, say, active wear, if you're doing sports. Bought it an excellent material, but I wouldn't sleep on say, Betsy, it's made up of plastics

Jessica Owen
Well, as you say, as well. I mean, I've come across many other companies who are trying to sort of develop their own sort of new fibers. There's a company, I think, in Japan, for example, that I think they're called Spider, something like brewed proteins or whatever. But as great as these innovations are, I think it will take a lot more effort to explain to consumers where it's come from, what it is. How does it compare to other things? Whereas what you're doing with this sort of new cotton, I think people just understand it a lot easier and more likely to, sort of, you know, just wear it straight away. They won't be as scared to buy it. So, I mean, having companies then, such as H M and Adidas, I'm assuming, is, is great, because pretty much everyone knows that these companies, and if they're selling it, I'm sure again, people will be, you know, quite happy to buy these new things from them.

Petri Alava
Yeah, exactly because they, at the end of the day, what, what matters, and what maybe has been slowing down this, this kind of of systematic changes, is that the there simply hasn't been products available for for consumers so so far, I think, what, if you're looking really sustainable clothing, it's typically kind of of niche products, or sometimes the qualities, is not on par with your expectations. And what we really love with this project is is that that we have on board these, these giant textile companies like hm and Otis, who are really able to speak with ordinary people, and that's what, that's one of our core targets, that that we are able to bring up, say, the fashion to the market which is affordable to everyone, because we don't want the the kind of sustainable fashion to be kind of exclusive, that only say people have, Have say they kind of either, either, let's say, very specific personal policies or beliefs, or then that they have all they are becoming so expensive that ordinary people can buy. So that's one of the key messages. What we try to do, I want to be also delivering that this is affordable. This is something which suits everybody, and nobody needs to be making any compromises so it looks good, it feels Look, look, and it's also affordable.

Jessica Owen
It's good that you mentioned it's affordable because I my sort of new year's resolution has to be, is to only buy clothes now that are sustainable in some way. And it's so difficult, like, and I can imagine a lot of people who might have the same plan, they either see the price or they can't be bothered to spend that much time searching for companies that do what they want, you know, on Google. I mean, I've spent a couple hours just trying to find, you know, a long sleeve t shirt that's sustainable. But again, it's just so difficult. So I mean, when you say it's affordable, is it the same sort of price point, or is it still going to be a little bit more expensive, and eventually, with, I don't know, say economies of scale, if you're able to achieve that, could it be, again, even more affordable?

Petri Alava
Yeah. So the of course, it's about, say, finding the right scale, that that's all about, because it is an kind of industrial made fiber. So it's all about finding and getting the right scale. And we really believe that that this can be very, very affordable, whether it's cheaper, whether it's on par with the existing, existing solutions, but that we don't know yet, but, but we do see that there's a great potential that this, this will be available for everyone, and everybody will be will afford to buy these clothes made of materials.

Jessica Owen
I mean, would you agree then, that when it comes to consumers, cost is the main thing that stops people from sort of buying things and convenience as well? 

Petri Alava
Yeah, I think the, I'm sure that that, let's say, when it comes to the clothing, say people are still kind of far price conscious, so they are looking at that. Say, affordable solutions. But I would just agree, what? What do you say that, at least today, it is so difficult to buy sustainable clothing that I think the availability today is the main threshold. They really don't find those. It needs too much efforts to find the sustainable clothing. Then when the sustainable clothing is ready, available, say, by these, these brand companies, then it becomes to then it comes also a becomes a price issue. But the it's also encouraging now that if you look and read about the kind of Consumer Studies, it really shows that the minute millennials, the people under 30 years of age, they also willing to pay for it. So it's not only about, say, buying the. Cheapest, cheapest clothing. It's about also that they are able to buy something which is fulfilling their their personal values.

Jessica Owen
That's interesting. You say that everyone seems to share the same opinion that it is this younger generation that are more interested in even just the wider topics such as climate change, like hopefully this will just push the industry and consumer demand will make a significant change. And so I wanted to ask you, so H M is already quite a sustainably minded company. And I mean, I was actually looking at their conscious sort of collection online the other day for a jumper, but these items only make up a small percent of their overall offering from your dealings with H M, would they like to be able to offer everything? But again, it just comes down to availability, a lack of innovation, and so they just, they just can't.

Petri Alava
Yeah, that is simply the problem. I'm sure that that when, when these materials, or if these materials, would be available today in scale, they would use it in in very large volumes. And then say, the I just love to work with, with those companies like hm and Otis, because they are very, very helpful. They are also wanting to to, kind of offer make our road smoother. They are connecting us with their suppliers, and they're kind of making more than than, than what, what we kind of normally would be expecting them to do, just to help us to scale. But then at the end of today, kind of scaling, this kind of technologies also needs a very high investment. So the that's the next job for us to find out the the investments needed to to scale these, these technologies creating also works, work new work for people, creating new value for the waste, because instead that it's in a in a way sad, that the we are kind of wasting that much of valuable raw materials into the landfills and incineration. I can't see there any logic. So I think this is really exciting to be able to create the new value for the waste things, what we are just throwing away, creating new jobs for the people, and then also creating solutions with what are bringing kind of new value to the people,

Jessica Owen
Definitely. I mean, in your opinion, then the technologies that are around today when it comes to textile sort of recycling and even, like separation of fibers and so on. I mean, I spoke to a company called blocktex, and they're doing really well in this area. Are there enough technologies at the moment out there to do this, or do we really need sort of more people innovating in this particular sort of part of the supply chain?

Petri Alava
So if you look at the technologies, what, what do you have today in use the the those are very traditional ones, which are kind of traditional mechanical technologies, where, where you are, where you are shredding the materials apart, enabling to reuse material. And it's just great. Of course, from the sustainability perspective, it's really great. The only thing is, is that the when you are using these traditional technologies, which has been used for for hundreds of years, you always are kind of shortening the material, which means that that when you are taking into use these materials, you are not really getting the same quality. So the consumerist is feeling that they need to be making compromises in terms of the quality. And the second thing is that that when you come to the end of the of the life cycle, so when you are really dealing with the waste collected from the consumers. It's getting so much more complex, because, say, the you have mixed materials, you can't you are actually not any more able to buy even 100% cotton fashion, because it's a the threads are made of polyester yarns. It's typically the textiles or garments are made of mixed fiber. So say the it's making the kind of mechanical recycling impossible because you have blend off of different materials, and then you also have the materials are broken and you are not able to use that. So in that respect, these new innovations like ours is really needed, you know, in order, in order to be able to recover, also, the end of of the life, life cycle, garments back to the loop. So the there's a definitely need, also for the traditional technologies, great for for kind of cut waste from from the from the textile manufacturing, but when it comes to the used garments, then you need these, these new innovations, and the more the merrier. Because, say, the the it's really about just, just to get the industry used to these new innovations, new new materials, so that the more materials there's available, the wider gets to use. And we get a great impact on on the on the on the environment, so we are not worried that that's that if there's also competition, it's just great that there are so many companies solving the same problem.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, okay, and so then you mentioned there about that, obviously, clothes are made from different composition of different fibers, and is there quite a heavy responsibility then for designers to design clothes that are made of one particular material. Would that make life a lot easier? 

Petri Alava
Yeah, it would make the the the, say, recycling easier. But then, from from the other perspective, say, it's also important that the the people are are able to buy, buy something, what, what they feel right because is that by mixing the materials you you are also you're trying to improve the performance of the material. So it's not only about kind of of getting back to the single material use. I will respect that say the physical shape of the people has changed. So the elastane, for example, it might be important because it gives the elasticity to the fabrics. I'm not sure if, if I would like to go back to to say, you using my rigid jeans from from 1970s so the just to feel comfortable in in order to be able to express yourself. I do see that there's also need for for these, these mixed materials. And I think the innovation can help. Say, for example, you say, for us, elastane is not a problem. We can remove elastin from from the textile waste. So I think the here, here, the innovation can play together and provide the solution so that the as consumers, as people, we are able to buy things, what we like to use, and then the technology can can solve the problem so that things can be recycled. Well,

Jessica Owen
I guess that actually goes back to what you were saying about it's about innovating in a way that people don't have to compromise anything. It should just be a natural sort of way of moving forward in a more sustainable way. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Now another thing that I know you mentioned earlier was about business models. So I think is it Aalto University, their role within this project is to sort of assess the process and the business model, which is quite vital actually, because when it comes to companies, I'm guessing money and whether it's actually going to work for them is probably the biggest thing on their minds. 

Petri Alava
So for sure, at the end of the day, say the say, the purpose of the businesses is to, is to also create profits. So the if we would be jeopardizing that capability, they they wouldn't be supporting, or they wouldn't be, probably that actively looking at the solution. So of course, the kind of of maintaining reasonable profitability, say, key issue for for for everyone, and the say, through with the business innovations, you can always kind of find also new ways to make the businesses more profitable. So it's really vital that that we are looking also openly the business models, but the We also believe that the kind of traditional business model can maintain a good profitability with our kind of technologies. Because we are just, we are just helping them to change the business to from from linear to circular model, and still, the cost competitiveness is there. So I don't think that, as such, the business model innovation would be say the it would be required. But of course, when we are able to find out the new business models, it's just great that that we can find more ways to change the world better? 

Jessica Owen
Yeah, definitely. Because when I from speaking to other people in the industry, they say that, for example, a lot of startup companies now are just naturally considering sustainability, and because they're they're starting from a blank slate. It's a lot easier to sort of work out how best to do things, but for these companies that have been around for decades, who must have sort of such deeply entrained ways of doing things, it's quite difficult, probably, to go in there and break it all up and try and redesign it and so on. So having a business model is hopefully not going to change too drastically. I'm assuming is something that they'd be really interested in learning more about. 

Petri Alava
Yeah, I would agree more, of course, to change. Radical changes can happen. Say, if you look at the brick and mortars retail, how it has changed to the internet sales. So of online sales. Of course, radical changes could be happening also, but the the in order, in order to be also, in order to be able to kind of, for FAR, get a faster adoption adaptations of the of the kind of circular businesses and practices. Say, of course, it helps if we can kind. Relatively easily to provide solutions to their existing business models that would be definitely create faster change.

Jessica Owen
And so obviously, this project will be running for about three years. What's the plan for afterwards? Then where do you hope the industry will be at that point? Are you expecting quite a lot of change in this time, or do you think it's going to be quite a slow burner?

Petri Alava
Yeah. So the of course, parallel to this project, we are now working with the couple of other projects to find out solutions for for scaling this to the industrial scale. But I'm sure that the readiness of the textile industries is much bigger for change, then there's a capability to kind of build capacity, build the scale of what is needed for this innovation. So I think the that's the thing, which is slowing down that, that how can we kind of speed up the adaptation stuff of new technology? How can we find the capital needed for, for, for building the capacity needed. So the there's much more willingness than most likely at the end of the day, how fast we can scale up

Jessica Owen
and at the end of the three years, then do you reckon you'll perhaps extend the program if it's been successful? Or have you even thought about that?

Petri Alava
Actually, what we are looking is, is that that we would already have a commercial scale in in 2024 so we're very, very actively now working on, on finding the the capital needed for for building, really the kind of industrial scale, so that these, these solutions would be readily available globally, for for for consumers. So, so the objective is that that we have a would have a commercial scale production 24

Jessica Owen
Okay, well, that's something to look forward to. Yeah,

Petri Alava
I agree. I agree. 

Jessica Owen
And I mean, also on your website, I read that another sort of aim for this project is to act as an inspiration and sort of a stepping stone for, you know, other projects or initiatives to sort of go forward in the industry. So do you think this will, this will encourage others to, sort of, you know, get their acting gear.

Petri Alava
I definitely believe so. So, of course, already today, we're working globally. So we do see that there's our very active projects in, say, in Bangladesh. Chinese is very active looking. Japan is very actively looking so we do see that there's, there's willingness everywhere to kind of change the habits. And as hm Otis, they are globally, globally, working in this industry. So they are visible companies globally. So that is the thing, how we can really kind of for far in the introduce these new new ideas globally, and getting much faster adaptations, also not only in Europe, but also in in Asia, which is still the main hub of textile manufacturing. 

Jessica Owen
Well, Petri, we're sort of coming to the end now, unfortunately, but last question for you, which is quite a big question, but then you say, you're an optimist, so I'm interested to hear what you say. Do you think that the industry will ever become sustainable and will ever adopt this circular economy sort of model? 

Petri Alava
I'm so sure say the, I think the what this industry is requiring that it needs the front runners, the companies who are showing the change, and then as the the world is so there's this lot of companies who want to be the second best, who are copying the brilliant ideas. So of course, we are creating a blueprint inspiration for the industry. And I'm convinced that in, say, in 1015, 20 years, this industry will be all about sustainability. Say, if you are not able to provide sustainable clothing, people will not buy it, because they the climate change is it's really so visible it is here, so I can't see any other way.

Jessica Owen
Oh, good. I mean, you've given me a sense of optimism. Now, I mean, some people have the opposite view, and they're like, Oh, I'm not sure we're going to make it there, or if we do, it's not going to be quick enough. So fingers crossed. 

Petri Alava
I hope so too. 

Jessica Owen
Well. I mean, Petra, it's been so lovely to talk with you today, and thank you so much for telling me about this new cotton project and everything. It's been great. So good luck with it, and hopefully at the end of those three years, you'll be in such a great position and the industry can thank you for it. Thank you so much.

Petri Alava
It was really my great pleasure talking with you. Applause.