Ep. 56: UK must consider Extended Producer Responsibility for textiles Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 56: UK must consider Extended Producer Responsibility for textiles

This week on The WTiN Podcast we speak to the director of the Textile Recycling Association, Alan Wheeler.

Jessica Owen
Hello. My name is Jessica Owen, and I'm the Deputy digital editor at WTiN, and this is the WTiN podcast. Over the next few weeks, I'll be talking to organizations about the topic of textile recycling. This is one of the most important solutions to the industry's waste and sustainability problems. So tune in to learn about new industry initiatives to create circular fashion upcoming textile recovery technologies. How best to communicate sustainability to consumers and much more. This week, I am joined by the director of the UK textile recycling Association, Alan Wheeler. Alan talks about the need for chemical recycling technology, how COVID 19 appropriate clothing, ie loungewear is not suitable for our sub Saharan reuse markets and how the UK Government must conduct a review into a potential extended producer responsibility scheme for textiles.

Good morning. Alan. Good, to talk to you today. How are you doing?

Alan Wheeler
I'm fine. Thank you very much. Jessica Good, good,

Jessica Owen
so I think we were speaking earlier. You're based down in Kent near Leeds Castle, not Leeds. How's the situation there? Well, we're

Alan Wheeler
in lockdown. Like everyone else. The rates are going down a bit, but shops are shut, and we're all sort of holed up here, and it's a fairly typical, dull January morning. So yeah, I'm not sure how nice the walk's going to be later on today.

Jessica Owen
No, not that one bit of exercise we're all allowed to do, even though I am

Alan Wheeler
in the garden of England and the bit of the garden of England that actually deserves the name. But there you go. Just can't see it because it's so dull. Oh,

Jessica Owen
never mind. I mean, the evenings are getting longer here now, aren't they? So spring is on its way, Indeed, indeed, right then. Well, thank you for coming on the show today, and hopefully you're going to help me answer some questions I have about your organization and the initiatives going on, all to do with textile recycling. So before we go any further, then, do you mind introducing yourself and the textile recycling Association, and tell me exactly what you sort of do.

Alan Wheeler
Okay, yeah, sure. My name's Alan Wheeler. I'm director of the textile recycling Association, which is the UK trade association for collectors and processes of used clothing and used textiles. So our members, we're a trade association like I say, and our members are anything from small and medium sized enterprises right through to the commercial arms of some of the bigger sort of charities that are engaged in the used clothing and textile recycling industry. So typically you will find our members operating clothing collection banks say that situated in public car parks or maybe hwrc sites. Another really important form of collection is is through charity shops. So when a member of the public donates an item of clothing, about 50% of what is donated is actually sold in the shops, and the remaining 50% is sold out at the back end to the trade. So those are two, you know, really big sort of, you know, means of collecting used clothing, used textiles. Others include sort of local authority door to door collections, local charity collections, and you get some school collections. And now even more so we're getting an increasing number of high street retailers doing in store take back schemes, right? Okay, interesting.

Jessica Owen
So, I mean, for example, I know H M do a scheme where you can bring in clothes and get a voucher. Would you be the guys receiving that? Then,

Alan Wheeler
as it happens, the H M scheme is run by a global textile collector and sorter, and their UK arm is a member of our trade association. Yes, that's correct. I see.

Jessica Owen
Okay. So besides this, then you're also sort of lobbying and consulting with the government. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, yes.

Alan Wheeler
So, so my, my own sort of personal role is, is, yes, representing the interests of of our members. So the trade association itself will provide added benefits like you would expect of any, any trade association, so offering advice on, on complying with regulations, doing some training and so on and so forth. But yes, for us, I think where, where we're moving over the next few years is, is, I think, to greater regulation in the sector to promote the circular economy. And in order to do that, and in order to make sure that the reuse and recycling sectors voices heard, it's really important that the textile recycling association is is, you know, sitting with government and so on, and, you know, putting forward our points of view, and sitting with other people in the clothing supply chain and making sure we're sort of making that linear economy more circular. So that's what I do. Okay,

Jessica Owen
well, I mean, we'll come on to that later on. I'll sort of get more into that, but, but first of all, I think it might be quite helpful to people who don't really understand the sort of textile recycling process and industry. Well, to start, go back to basics. So how does textile recycling work here in the UK? I mean, I think any sort anyone who lives here knows there are sort of drop off banks in most towns and villages and, as we say, charity shops. But, but what happens from there? Then? Okay,

Alan Wheeler
so if it gets sold out the back by the charity shop to the trade, or if it's collected via textile bank or through door to door, the route to markets for the clothing and textiles that is collected is more or less the same, and that applies in the UK, in Europe as well, where used clothing collections are also done on quite large numbers and in other places like North America and so on and so forth. So it will come back to a depot, and at some point, the clothing and the textiles that have been collected will go through a sorting process. Now that can either be in the UK or it could be abroad. Sometimes merchants will be sending stuff from here to a sorting operation, perhaps in Eastern Europe, or maybe into other places, like like Dubai. But wherever, wherever that sorting takes place, the operation is very similar. So it's a manual process. It's labor intensive at the moment, so that when you get, let's say, a ton of clothing coming from a textile bank and it's landed in the warehouse, what you have got is a ton of mixed everything. So you'll have, you know, different types of garments made of polyester, of cotton, of wool, of nylon, with different dyes, different finishes, different clothing for different seasons, and clothing in different states of wear and tear. And somebody's got to sort it, because, you know, you can't do anything with just a mixed ton. It has to be, you know, sorted into, you know, it's different sort of grades. So actually, what happens is, it goes through a sorting process. Now, the most detailed processes will sort in anything up to 400 grades of clothing and textiles. But more typically, you're probably talking about 100 and and it's very easy, when you start thinking about it, how you grade these things out. So for example, it will be, first of all, graded by destination. And I can go on to that in a bit further detail in a in a few minutes. But we saw used clothing for our main markets, which is in Africa, in Eastern Europe, and also in Pakistan. So so you can sort different for different markets. There you can sort by winter wear by summer where by, you know, hot and dry season, you can sort by menswear, women's wear, children's wear and and suddenly, then you start sorting it out into different garments. And you can quite easily see how you can come up with anything up to 400 grades of used clothing and used textiles. And then, of course, you've got the recycling grades as well. So although they are not tended to be sorted into such detail, they will be sorted out by color, potentially, because we, at the moment, we have a dominance of recycling being done by mechanical recycling processes. And you know, that doesn't involve putting in any chemical processes and changing the colors and so on and so forth. So you might want to, you know, similar color, blue jeans or whatever. So you would have to pick out the odd ones that are, you know, brown or whatever other color they might be. So, so you're sorting out by color and by fiber types there and and that's really what happens. So the recycling grades goes up into various different mechanical recycling processes, and the reusable element is then sold on into export markets, like, I say, in Africa, in in Eastern Europe, and also into Pakistan as well.

Jessica Owen
So the stuff that is good enough to use, and that can be just sold on and reused as clothing, and then other stuff can be, you know, reusing. I think it's things like mattress. Picking and things, is that what it's then recycled into,

Alan Wheeler
that's exactly what happens, you know, the recycling. If you've got it like a cotton t shirt, it's relatively straightforward to cut it into, you know, sizes of about 25 centimeters by 25 centimeters, and you've got an industrial wiping off there. So that is, that is really the simplest form of recycling that you can do for any kind of item of clothing. But again, it's, you know, that's, that is just one application. It has a relatively limited use. And I have to say, you know, it can only be used once. But it does replace, you know, resources from what would otherwise be, you know, Virgin sources, be they either recycling or or paper, paper wiping cloths or, or, you know, made from other virgin fibers as well. So there is that. But yes, typically you'll get other grades where they are pulled. The items are pulled and the constituent fibers are then used in things like mattress and duvet fillings, or maybe in heat and sound insulation, impact insulation in cars and wool can be turned and turned into shoddy, which is obviously, you know, a wool substitute yarn, which I'm sure your business will know about. So,

Jessica Owen
okay, right, um, and so, for example, when so take your household waste that you recycle, I think there are stories going around that actually something ridiculous, that only 1% of that might actually be recycled. Is that the same case in textiles, or is it, is the bulk of it always repurposed in some way or another?

Alan Wheeler
The 1% figure that you might see, you know, circulated on the Internet, has to be taken into context that it's estimated that about 1% of clothing is recycled back into clothing. That's not the same as 1% of clothing being recycled. The figure is much higher for that. So if you just consider what we are doing in the UK, and you have to bear in mind, though, that we do collect quite a lot of clothing here in the UK, but as a country as a whole, we consume about 1.1 million tons of new clothing every year. Now that doesn't mean to say that we are disposing of 1.1 million tons every year. When I say disposing, I mean disposing for either reuse and recycling and and also just going straight in the black bin or the or the waste stream. But it's it you, you kind of accept that there is more or less you buy one item of clothing, you get rid of one, because otherwise our wardrobes would just be exploding. So, so if we accept that we are depositing or discarding about 1.1 million tons, about 620,000 tons is estimated to be going back into reuse and recycling collections. So that's through the charity shops, through the textile banks, through household waste recycling centers, local authority, curbside et cetera, and of which, about 60% of that will go for reuse, and the remaining 40% so we are probably talking about 250,000 tons. So that's me just thinking off the top of my head now, is going for recycling. So that's so obviously, clearly, you know, 250,000 tons, as opposed to 1.1 million tons. That's a lot more than 1% but virtually none of that goes into the recycling of clothing. And that's simply because, as as I've described, the mechanical recycling processes, which are still really the only ones that are commercially viable at the moment, it involves the pulling or cutting of the of the of the items, and in doing so, that affects the the fiber quality, the fiber length, and obviously got situation with different colors and whatever it's it's just very difficult to use those fibers in a meaningful way, on The whole, to recycle them back into a clothing item, and that's why they're going to filling materials, which is not a bad thing. I will. I am a fan of using them as filling materials, because if you think about it, if you put it in, let's say insulation, that insulation product will last the entire lifetime of the building which it goes in, because as far as I'm aware, it's not commonplace to have a building that's 100 years old or 200 years old, and go, do you know what I'm going to replace the insulation, I'm going to suck it out. It's it stays in there, if it's working. So you've got a product there that potentially lasts hundreds of years. And. And its very purpose is to reduce energy consumption. So I think if you did an LCA on on textiles that have been used in insulation products, it would score very highly from a sort of carbon emissions point of view. So I think we should, you know, celebrate the fact that it is going into those things, but yes, only about, well, certainly less than 1% nobody's really done any detailed analysis of this. I know that the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, you know, came up with an estimate back in I think it was 2017 but that was only based on interviews, and that was based on what was already circulating on the internet about what the estimate was at the time. So we should really have a look at how much really is going back into clothing, but it is certainly less than 1% I'm absolutely confident about. Well, that's

Jessica Owen
actually positive to hear. I mean, I didn't know obviously, any of those stats beforehand. So yeah, as you say, that should, should be celebrated. I mean, it shouldn't matter what it's going into, as long as it is being repurposed at the end of the day. I

Alan Wheeler
could add more if you want. But question, well,

Jessica Owen
I mean, one thing you mentioned there is that the sorting process, the mechanical recycling process, it's quite labor Well, the sorting is quite labor intensive. And the mechanical process, I guess, isn't you know, as delicate with what's going on. So would you say that the process is efficient? Or do you think that, you know, considering technologies we have these days? I mean, do you think a lot of work could be done to, sort of, you know, get the most out of this?

Alan Wheeler
Well, I'm glad you asked the question, because actually, I would say the answer is, more has to be done, and not necessarily because of what we are doing in this country. It is because the the amount of textile recycling, textile collections and textile recycling that is going on globally is actually very low. At the moment we are we collect more clothing per head of population in the UK than any other country in the world, and that includes even the sort of environmentally friendly Germans and and the Nordics and so on and so forth. So I would caveat that by saying we also consume more new fashion than than the German. So we, you know, we can't celebrate too much, but, but the point is, though Northwestern Europe collects a lot more than anyone else in the world, and we are a global industry. And for the global industry to become more circular, everyone has to be collecting more and and the thing is, though, with our current markets, so with a with our markets for Africa, our markets for Eastern Europe and whatever. So the reuse market, they are already, you know, for, you know, quite full at the moment, if I'm, if I'm honest, if suddenly the rest of the world was collecting more used clothing, we would have to think about, well, where could we send the used clothing? Because, you know, there's only you can't force more clothing onto markets if they don't want to buy it. So there is that issue. And just to give an example on that particular front, although we are the, you know, like, I say, the biggest collector that one of the other real emerging players in the used clothing industry is China. So just to give an example, about seven or eight years ago, the Chinese were responsible for less than 1% there's another less than 1% figure there, but it was about point six, 8% of the entire global market of used clothing, and they were nowhere, to be quite frank. Now in that time, the Chinese industry has started collecting more clothing within China. Now they don't have an internal market for used clothing. The Chinese don't like buying used clothing, so they are exporting it into the same markets that we are now, and now they're the fourth biggest exporter of used clothing in the world, and they are competing in the same markets as us. And it's like our market has now got considerably more crowded in Sub Saharan Africa than it than it was sort of six, seven years ago. And again, just to sort of emphasize that Kenya is the biggest market for used clothing in East Africa, and we, six years ago, were the biggest importer into into Kenya. We were responsible singularly, for about 20% of all clothing imports going into Kenya. Now. We ask, we sorry, we were probably actually near a 25% now China has 30% of that market, and we're we're down into nine, about 18 19% and that's a story that has been repeated across Sub Saharan Africa. So that's just one country that's okay, the world's biggest fly population, but it emphasizes what we are set for and what we need to do, and the same thing will apply for for the recycling grades. Recycling grades are much lower in value than than the reuse grades, and that's because demand for it is relatively low. And even though we don't specifically encourage, we will collect any, you know, but encourage the donation of of recycling grades by putting we'll take any grade of of used textiles through these clothing collection banks, we still get enough coming through that we are able to meet the demands, the existing demands of the Recycling Market. But we need to move. We need to collect more. We need to we need to collect more clothing globally. We need to collect, we need to target more of the low grade stuff. And in order for us to be able to do that, we need new markets. We need new markets for used clothing. We need new markets for recycled grades. And it's like, well, if the mechanical recycle, the existing mechanical recycling markets are already full, where are we going to get the new where we're going to be able to send the new recycling grades that we're collecting? And that's where I think there has to be a role for chemical recycling, which is a process that is being developed by a number of stakeholders in various parts of the world, but most of those are still at the lab stage, or, at best, the demonstration plant stage. Well, it's

Jessica Owen
funny, you mentioned that I think I spoke to someone else in this series. They're called blocktex, and they're a chemical recycler based in Australia, and they're currently, there's just need that last bit of funding for them to, you know, build to plant, really start scaling up their solution, because they sound like they're doing a brilliant job, and there is interest. It's just that funding that's holding them back at the moment,

Alan Wheeler
but it's a common thing, yeah.

Jessica Owen
Well, I mean, I think they were hopeful that, you know, chemical recycling, and that if I even if you just start to, know, you get one plant in each country across the world, that's that would be amazing. So, I mean, are you, are you saying them, essentially, will there come a point that there's almost too much waste that we know what to do with in terms of, you just there aren't the markets there. Is it essentially a mindset thing? I mean, you said there China just doesn't want to wear reused clothes. So is that a mindset change that, you know we need? That

Alan Wheeler
would be, in my opinion, that would be a really difficult thing to to overcome. I mean, you got to bear in mind that in China, people buy houses for investment, and they don't move into them, because there is such a notion that second hand is inferior, that the value of houses in China decreases as soon as somebody moves into them. So therefore, yeah, if you've got an inherent mindset like that, it's going to be more difficult to try and persuade those people. But yes, you do have to start somewhere. And also, you know, there's this whole thing about, you know, we, we're sending clothing to to Africa. And actually, rather than sort of, you know, trying to knock it, actually, we should be kind of saying, look, there. There we are, you know, selling this product in Africa, which is actually a really positive environmental thing, and actually it creates hundreds of 1000s of jobs in those countries. And rather than try and knock it, actually, we should go, kind of be going well actually, we should try and see what we can do to replicate that in other parts of the world, and you know, I would like more clothing to be again, I have to caveat this a little bit, because actually, we're pretty good at reusing clothing in the UK, but the rest of Europe. And I don't wish to sound like I'm bashing Europe, because I'm, I'm an absolute Euro file, but actually, we reuse a lot more clothing in this country through our fantastic network of charity shops and other outlets, and that's something that I think as we, as collectively as Europeans, need to try and replicate more.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, I'm a massive charity shop fan. Any of my family knows me, I just love it, especially you can I mean, I'm going off track here, but the bargains you can get some of the designer things for like eight pound is just it's silly. Yes,

Alan Wheeler
you do hear people saying, well, you know, with fast fashion, sometimes the charity shop seems to be more expensive, but that's not my experience. And you know, dare I say, one of the other places in normal times that we like going to is the Boot Fair as well, which is another great outlet. So. Of them, but yes, hopefully this summer we might be able to go to a few.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, fingers crossed. Well, one question I wanted to ask you was because obviously charity shops have been closed, sort of on and off this year in the UK, has that can you see any sort of significant changes in the levels of clothing that you're receiving nowadays? Or is there not really much change? Well,

Alan Wheeler
clearly, when the charity shops are closed, the charity shops in themselves, account for about 50% of all donations, and textile banks account for about 30% so they are the two dominant forms of donation in the UK. And clearly, when the shops are closed, that is not coming through via the charity shops. So that's a loss of income, significant loss of income for the charities themselves. And yes, of course, it means that we are having our supplies limited. We are what we have seen. We certainly saw this in the first lockdown, and I think a number of our operators learn from experience, but I did say to them at the outset, you will need to keep your textile banks in operation throughout the first lockdown we would class as key workers, as recyclers. You were allowed to collect, you know, items for recycling, but some tried to close down. But of course, they closed their textile banks down, but they're situated in public car parks. They're situated often next to supermarkets, and it was inevitable that people would continue to use them, even if you put signs on there saying, this bank's not being serviced, don't use it. So we've learned from that. All of us have learned from that now, and we are seeing a shift of clothing going from charity shops to textile banks. But it's not obviously, you know the whole lot. So I think you'll find that people are storing things up at the moment. And and what will be interesting is, I've heard people say, you know, people are changing their shifting patterns, and this could have an effect on the cutting of clothing coming by in in, you know, in months or years to come. So saying more people are buying loungewear, and loungewear is not particularly financially viable for us, so that could present a challenge in the future if we're finding that coming through. Yeah, that? I

Jessica Owen
mean, that's so interesting, I didn't even think about things like that. I mean, yeah, I guess the Yeah, the T shirts, jumpers, I don't know, shorts, denim jeans, onesies, well, those things that people aren't buying at the moment. So, gosh, yeah, imagine wearing your onesie down in Kenya. That's not really, no, okay. Well, just moving on. Then something else that I wanted to talk to you about today is that I know that the textile recycling association is currently doing a call upon the UK Government to sort of ensure that the review on something called the extended producer responsibility on clothing and textiles is completed. So do you mind firstly, just sort of explaining what this EPR is and why it's important.

Alan Wheeler
Extended producer responsibility is a principle whereby producers of any product take responsibility, so take some kind of responsibility for the in the environmental impacts and the cost of re collecting and reusing and recycling that product throughout its entire supply chain. So, you know, there is a cost to so in normal sort of waste collections, the product is put on the market by the retailer. It's consumed by the read the user, and then it is disposed of into a bin, and it's usually collected by the local authority at the expense of the taxpayer, which, when you think about it, it's like you've got businesses making, you know, billions of pounds or billions of dollars on the selling of this product. It's only fair that that they take some responsibility for the cost of cleaning up the product that they've put on the market in the first place, so that's where the principle of extended producer responsibility has come from. And we have a number of EPR schemes in this country, not that many, but we got a number. We got a number operating in this country, but there are a number of other extended producer responsibility schemes in other countries on other products. So it's not an it's not a new idea, but it's relatively new to the the use the clothing, the fashion industry, the clothing industry. So at the moment, there's only one country in the world that has an extended producer responsibility scheme on clothing. And that is our neighbor across the English Channel, France, and that's in place for around eight or nine years. So in France, when you go and buy clothing, you there's a very small levy put on the clothing. It's less than one euro cent, actually, per garment, but that euro cent is then used to raise, obviously, raises funds in itself. And as part of that, there is a, there's a a body that is has been set up under French law to administer the scheme. It's called, it's now called refashion. You may know Zico TLC, but they recently changed their name, and they approved the recyclers who, you know, are able to receive some funds under the scheme. So that, you know, if you you register as a recycling, you have to make sure that you provide pass all the professional standards required before you're able to start, you know, receiving the funds from the from the EPR scheme. So there is that element to help finance and improve collection rates in France, which are still much lower than us, but they have improved substantially since the introduction of EPR there. Then there's the other element you've got, sort of, you know, promotion of collections and so on and so forth. So there's a there's a public facing fund, rate public facing communications campaign in France, which is funded through the PR scheme to encourage the public to make sure that they donate, reuse and recycle their clothing once it reaches the end of their life. And then there's the other then there's another element, which funds R and D into new markets for clothing and textiles. So, you know, a substantial amount of research work that has been done in Europe has actually been funded through the French EPR scheme. So, so that's useful. So if we have more EPR schemes in in other countries, we'll be getting more research into developing the markets that we very much need. And then there's an eco modular element associated with it, whereby if you're putting, essentially, if you're putting products on the market that are more environmentally friendly, you don't have to pay the full amount for the on the levy, or you don't pay anything at all. That's one of those principles. So it's actually not just about making funding reuse and recycling. It's actually about making improvements along the entire supply chain. So France is the only country that's introduced it, but there are a number of countries, including the UK, but I would say further couple of countries that are possibly further down the line. Sweden is has committed to introducing EPR next year, and the Netherlands is due to present a framework to its parliament in the spring. So there are a few other countries that are further down the line.

Jessica Owen
As you say there, it sounds like a great scheme, but, I mean, you are clearly then, if you're calling for the government to sort of basically hurry up and commit to this, what's holding it back then? Because, I mean, it sounds great, but yeah, well, actually, what I

Alan Wheeler
haven't explained so far is that in the waste strategy for England, which was published at the end of two in December, 2018 so just over two years ago, the government made a commitment to conduct a review into the viability of the the implementation of extended producer responsibility on clothing and textiles in the UK and and it listed it along with four other material streams. So it's, it's, it's, it's identified textiles as one of the five priority material streams that needs to be looked at very seriously because, and I would say principally, it's because of the environmental impacts associated with the fashion industry. It's estimated that the fashion industry is responsible for about 10% of all global greenhouse gas emissions. So you know, if we are to meet our obligations under the Paris accord, we really need to, you know, get those carbon emissions down from from the from the fashion industry. So there is that. And also we know that there is a huge issue around water consumption and water pollution caused by the fashion industry. So you know, it's again, the Environmental Audit Committee in their report, I think they estimated that 20% of all pollution or fresh water in the world is caused by the fashion industry. So so you've got two things. So just going back to where we are, that the UK Government identify textiles as we really need to consider this very case. Carefully. But what they did was they said, We will review two of these material streams by 2022 and put the other three off until 2025 and that's where we are. The government haven't decided which of the two material streams needs to be I, you know, treated as a priority. Now, I'm very certain that, yes, the other materials that were identified, they all need to be on that list, but none of them have the same, you know, carbon emissions and water pollution issues as our industry, and that's why I'm actively convinced that we must get that review completed by 2022 because we can't wait another three years, because then it will still take several years, even if they do do the review and they go, actually, do you know what EPR is a really good idea. You know it will be 2028 2029 2030 before. Actually something would comes into law. We need to have had those. We need to have those targets set, and we need to get those, you know, emissions reduced by 2030 not have the law in by then. So we really need to get that, that review done by next year. And that's, that's really what we're pushing for. And, you know, I think there's a very strong case,

Jessica Owen
yeah, definitely. I mean, really, all of this should have been done, you know, years ago. And I mean, you only have to watch a David Attenborough program to hear that. You know, we're behind schedule, and if we don't get our act together. I mean, my generation, if I have children, they're just, you know, going to be living in a god knows what kind of world. So fingers crossed that comes through. I'm

Alan Wheeler
of an age where I was in university in the early 90s, and we were talking about greenhouse gas emissions and the greenhouse gas effect. Even back then, we didn't have we weren't necessarily talking about it in the same detail, but we were aware that our activities then were having an impact on the climate, and if anyone tells you anything different, I'm afraid, then they're lying, or they're highly misguided. We knew about it 30 years ago.

Jessica Owen
Oh, well, let's hope that we don't have to wait another 30 years anyway. So I mean this scheme, then you're essentially saying that businesses should take ownership of their products. What's the general consensus from businesses? Are they happy to do this? Or are they going to be like, you know, they're just not up for it.

Alan Wheeler
I have to say. I'm just going to caveat that question a little bit. What I am advocating, and what our association is advocating is that we need to undertake the review. We're not saying, Yes, let's go for it. The commitment by the government is we need to undertake the review. And it's through doing a proper review like that that we can actually say, Well, okay, yes, this is actually, you know, a really good or good idea, or maybe it can be done in another way. But what we can't what, what I think you can't say is, I'm against DPR. No retailer can actually form a case for saying I'm against DPR at the moment, because we don't know, really what it entails. How can you be against something? You don't know. It's only if you actually do a sensible and pragmatic and detailed assessment of it that we can get to a position where we are more informed about the choice. And so that's what we're first of all doing. We're advocating that we do this, then we make the decision on whether it is the right thing or not, there are, there are alternatives, you know. So for example, again, I'll refer back to Sweden. They have committed to an extended producer responsibility scheme, but they're also implementing, or looking to implement, some really quite robust product standards which will help also to deliver a circular economy, which is really what we're talking about. So So, for example, Sweden, the the looking to introduce a chemical tax, which would not just add one or two pence on a garment. We're talking about, potentially seven pounds per kilo, on, on the value, on the textiles that are used to make these products. So if they, if a, if a clothing product has chemicals in it that are subject to the reach regulations, which is the EU regulations, that that kind of limit, how many, what types of chemicals you can put in there, and how much you can put in there. If they're going over a certain limit, they will attract a tax of around three pounds, 50 a kilo. Now on top of that, there are also additional taxes for, you know, garments that are made of product. It's like rubber. And also, you know, children's wet sort of rain wear, that kind of thing. So you know, if you meet all that criteria and exceed all that criteria, but obviously still within the legal framework, still still legal, you would have to pay that whopping seven pounds per kilo. So if I was a producer, I would be doing whatever I can to make sure that I pay as little of that levy as possible. And that is another alternative way of, you know, addressing the some, some aspect of the circular economy. So, you know, there are other ways. So that's really where we are. It's about, let's get that review done. Let's make that informed decision, and let's look at the alternatives as well. Well,

Jessica Owen
there's a lot to go on then, by the sounds, but you're going to be quite

Alan Wheeler
busy. No two days are ever the same. So, yeah, it keeps

Jessica Owen
you on your toes now. Finally, then, I mean, there's many more questions that I could probably ask you, but we ask, unfortunately, we're running out of time. But I mean the final question, then, are you hopeful or pessimistic about whether the textile recycling industry and the wider industry can sort of achieve a circular economy, become more sustainable and so on? My

Alan Wheeler
answer to that is, it, quite simply, has to be it has to become more sustainable. It can't maintain its current status quo. We can't continue to consume clothing in the ever increasing amounts that we are doing. And we must find those markets and and I think you know if I suppose one thing about whatever circular economy model we choose to pursue. If we have that review early, we can set things like targets to say, you know, as a as an industry as a whole, we must say, have, let's say 30% or 50% recycle content in our products by 2050 2030 sorry, let's say not 2050 if we do that, then I think that that will drive the innovation and the determination to reach that goal. I think if we don't set those targets, then, then I'm afraid the progress will be very slow. We need to have those targets. We need to have something to aim for. Yeah,

Jessica Owen
definitely. You need that push, don't you exactly?

Alan Wheeler
I could tell you some old 1990s examples, again, of when targets weren't set.

Jessica Owen
Well, we can't turn on the past. We must move forward and make sure we actually do something about it this time. Yeah, sure. Well, Alan, I mean, it's been a pleasure talking with you today. I feel like I've learned so much. I mean, even if I wasn't in this job, I'd find this interesting. So thank you very much for coming on this show and sharing your thoughts. It's been great.

Alan Wheeler
Thank you for inviting me.