Ep. 74: Technology infused swimwear developments Ankit Podcast

This transcription has been AI generated and therefore may have some inaccuracies.

Ep. 74: Technology infused swimwear developments

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is Dr Rob Blenkinsopp, head of research and development at Aqualab (the innovation arm of Speedo).

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Dr Rob Blenkinsopp

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen, and I'm part of the team here at WTiN. And this is the WTiN, and podcast. Join me and my guests every other week as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I'm joined by Dr. Rob Blenkinsopp, who is the head of Research and Development at Aqua lab the innovation arm of Speedo. In this episode, Rob talks about speedos new concept zoo called the fast skin 4.0. And all the technologies it will comprise from artificial intelligence to energy harvesting fabrics, all the while discussing the financial and manufacturing feasibility, and whether it will even be race legal. Good morning, Rob. How are you today?

Speaker 2
Very well. How are you?

Speaker 1
Yeah, not bad. Thank you. Good. Good. Well, I mean, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Because you know, Speedo has just made an exciting new announcement about this, you know, what the future of swimsuits might look like? So it's really great to have the chance to talk with you about it. It's great to be here. Well, I mean, firstly, then most people know of speedo, obviously, but do you mind just telling us a bit about the company and its history perhaps?

Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think everyone knows Speedo Speedo is synonymous with swim as probably one of the world's biggest swim brands globally. And the name speed gets used to describe a certain type of swim attire. So you know, it's like the the Hoover and the vacuum cleaner. We have the speedo and the the swim brief, I guess. Yeah. So like speedo, was founded actually out of Australia. And this is where I always forget my dates, but a by a guy called Alexander McCray, and he was actually Scottish and he emigrated to Australia. And he set up a company that was manufacturing hosiery, and stuff like that. And then he kind of moved into kind of the swim, swim world trying to make swimwear. And he tried to apply some of those kind of like materials and things into Swinburne kind of from its very beginning spirit has been an innovative company looking at trying to push the boundaries and change the industry. And that's very much what Alexander McCray was about. He came back to the UK and set up a manufacturing in Nottingham, which is where we were based until relatively recently, we still have our headquarters in Nottingham. But he set up a factory there. And we were based there until we moved to a new site seven or eight years ago now. But kind of the history of speed, as I mentioned is is about innovation. And from that very early start we've been Alexander McQueen, the company, which originally was called for to tune the name Speedo actually came from a competition that he sets to name the company and somebody came in with speed on in your speedos and the speedo name was born. And obviously I've got attributed, as I've mentioned to, to certain swim attire in the future. But everything from kind of nylons, and stretch ravens and things like that, where we're moving, historically, and you think about spring wear was about trying to get coverage and it was knitted heavy materials that if you went in the water, and then they would soak up all the water and you couldn't move in them because they were jackets. And you know, really things that we think are quite basic now, but just the cut of the suit and the materials are being used with the way we pushed it on. So from the very beginning in terms of innovation in materials, speed have been at the forefront of that. And obviously competitive is a big part of our of our world as well. And this is what Fasken is all about. And Fasken is a relatively recent thing when in our history. But actually we've been involved in competitive from the 1930s Onwards and we've been controversial in in the competitive world. From our very beginning. Obviously we have the 2008 suit in Beijing, which dominated and won all the gold medals and was controversial because of the technology brought in and push the boundaries. But actually we were there was a Claire Denis was a swimmer for Speedo in the 19, one of the Olympics in the 1930s in LA I think it's 1932 off top my head and she was nearly disqualified for wearing a speedo suit that showed too much shoulder so big because controversy has been there all the way through. So yeah, it's not a recent thing, although fasting is kind of the most recent and we it's a big part of what we do and innovation in the world that that I work We work very heavily in competitive and fast skin. And this project that we've been working on is, is really been looking far into the future of fast skin as well as looking at what we do now. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, well, you know what I didn't realise that's where your name came from. That's quite an interesting sort of story. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And what's the connection with Aqua lab them? Because I believe this innovation that we're going to talk about today sort of been in collaboration with them. 

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Aqua lab is the innovation team for Speedo. Speedo is actually owned by a parent company called Pentland, who own a number of different brands. But Aqua lab is the identity of the innovation team that works on these projects. So actually, Ecolab was set up in 2004, after the Athens Olympics, to for the Athens Olympics, sorry, to create the Fasken and be a dedicated team for it. And that team has grown to be responsible for more innovations across the whole of speedos product range, not just in Fasken. So essentially, it is the dedicated innovation team now that that team also kind of transplant itself into the other brands within within the Pentland portfolio as well. But it is kind of like the key people to deliver innovation, or advanced innovation, as I would call it to, to to speed out and and what we do, and obviously in Fasken, that that's about making some as faster and a number of other things as well. 

Speaker 1
So as I mentioned, we're here to talk about speedos new concept called the speedo fast skin 4.0, which is a future iteration of this fast skin series that you've mentioned. You said it's obviously been a bit controversial over the years with everyone winning almost too many medals. So I mean, tell me a bit more about about fast skin. And what exactly makes it so unique. And how has it evolved over the years? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's interesting, because you know, it fascinating is an identity, it kind of came around in 2000. But competitive race suits the real kind of journey to Fasken started in the early 90s. And if you go back to pre 92, there wasn't really that much technology in swimming. And that's probably not a massive amount of technology and other parts of sports as well. And what we started to do, or the team started to do back then was looking at, well, how can we make people faster in the water. And in 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, they created the s 2000 suit, which was not, it was a female suit. But it wasn't a classic, just standard suit, it actually had a bit more coverage and but they also used a novel material that had textures basically woven into it, that would improve water flow over the body, the idea being that if we can make the water flow over the body more efficiently, then you'll have to use less energy, and therefore you can swim faster, it's hydrodynamics. It's drag and the science behind it gets quite complicated in some ways. But essentially, what we're trying to do is reduce the amount of effort needed to move a swimmer through the water. But what happened after 92 Is that that swimmer is a very, very smart people, when it comes to trying to find things to make them quicker. And some of the male athletes realised actually, if we get more coverage we can, we can swim faster and started to use that St. 1000 suit. So then 96 The Aqua blade was then a unisex to some extent suit that was created for male and female and started to increase the coverage. So instead of wearing just briefs for the males, now they had like a full body from me up to the neck kind of suit. But then if we fast forward then to 2000, how far can you go with it in terms of well, if you could cover a little bit of the body won't cover all of it. That's what the full body suit of Fasken was in 2000. And we've really kind of snowballed from there obviously culminating in a really successful suit in 2008, the Fasken laser racer, and we continue to innovate from there forward, but everything is around reduction of drag and trying to get the swimmer into the most hydropneumatic position possible, either squashing in the bits that can be squashed and trying to support them in a way that they can swim and reduce their drag because that the physics behind it are is if you double the area of something you're trying to push through the water, you have to it's not a linear relationship. So you have to increase the force by four times to be able to maintain that the speed because of the kind of the science and the physics behind it. So everything we can do to make them quicker is there it is important. And yeah, so kind of the developments over time with Fasken has been around that and now we're looking kind of forward to go well Fasken has been around now for 20 years, the first Fasken identify, identify the hassling suit came in 2000 and we've started to look forward and say what is what could it be in another 20 years time and and that's where this this this project came from and it we've kind of freed ourselves from from the, from the constraints that we have. And there are constraints from the rules of Fina, who are the governing body for swim, who we work very closely with and have a very good relationship with in the process that they kind of have suits and controversy that's happened in the past is just because brands and manufacturers can move much quicker than in the legislation. But as soon as the legislation kind of catches up, we work to that legislation, and we want it to be a fair playing field that everyone's working in the same way. So as constraining as it can be and frustrating sometimes that's part of the game that we play, and, and everything we've done historically, as well, as always been within the rules, the rules just always change.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I imagine that's quite frustrating. Yeah. Well, I was I was gonna ask actually about that about I'll come on to that in a little while. But this fast skin 4.0, then supposedly the most intelligent swim suit of all time. So you guys have said? So you said basically, the brief for this was just to imagine what it could be like in 20 years time. Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2
absolutely. I think you'll see in industry in other industries, that aside, prevalence of this type of thing with concept cars, were kind of the manufacturers will think is the future. And like, this is what a concept car could be and, and different technologies. And we wanted to do something similar, but what we didn't want to do with it was to be totally detached from reality. So one of the things when we when we worked on this was to make sure that everything was grounded into something that wasn't just fanciful. It's the kind of idea of saying, Well, what's a car gonna be like, in 20 years time? Oh, it's gonna be a flying car, how's it going to fly? Oh, we don't know. But it'll definitely be flying. We didn't want to, we want it to be realistic. So we worked with some external partners. And we ask them to go and scout the world for for technologies and things that are in maybe a lab somewhere or on a lab work top or something that's being researched or worked on that we can see a thread of interest. And then what we've done with it is gone. Well, let's walk through a thought experiment almost how far can we take that? And then how if that that particular technology, even if in its guys right now is very basic, and very kind of like unscalable, or commercial ever? What would it potentially be like in 20 years time? And how could that be used in our suit? So every piece of technology that we've put in that suit, we can take it back to a thread of something that's today that is, even if it's very, very conceptual, and it is kind of a reality, it may be quite a big job to get to where it'd be in 20 years time, but there is a thought that that that is possible with enough, obviously, time.

Speaker 1
Right. Okay. And yeah, I mean, when you were scouting for these technologies, then what sort of things did you come across? I mean, were there things that you haven't been able to include in the suit that he that was still really interesting?

Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. I mean, honestly, there's so much interesting stuff out there that you can get lost in it. And this and also the stuff that we haven't been able to find, or we didn't find, yeah, you don't know what you don't know, type thing. So it what we did do is we kind of looked at what we wanted the themes of the suit to be, and, and where we saw the future in 20 years time, and what the direction and the trends and everything that's telling us. And so the number one thing, obviously, it's fast skin, it's a racing suit. So it's got to be fast, we've one of the technologies and things out there that are going to make the seat fast. And that's where a little bit we've had to use some kind of freedom of the rules, because obviously fina rules at the moment, limit us on our coverage of the body. But we kind of said, well, look, let's just pretend that there aren't any rules of feeder, and things potentially will change there. Let's think about this as a full body suit, which obviously wouldn't be race legal now. So that was number one speed fastness, and things like that. And then the second thing we looked at, would be around customization and personalization. Obviously, there's been a movement for a number of years in that space. And it's only growing in pace. As you know, technologies are now being more available on your smartphone for scanning and other things. And the computing power needed to do a lot of the stuff as well as AI and stuff like that, that is going to support those, those kind of technologies. And that was another area we wanted to explore and also thinking about athletes and consumers or whoever as individuals, as opposed to a cohort of, of trying to fit everybody to one particular type of thing or a set number of things. So that was the second thing and then the third thing which is obviously really prevalent, it has been for years but it's just continuously great gaining more momentum, which is great. It's around like sustainability, that the future we need to protect the planet and the world and all stuff the future. So we wanted to look around things and sustainability and and how can we make the suit the most sustainable suit whether it's got these technologies in or not. And one of the other things within this suit, potentially that could be have a sustainable element to them. So those are the kind of three areas where we were focusing, because if you haven't, if you just opened it up, we could have had hundreds and hundreds of little technologies that we could have pulled in. And then there's obviously a filtering exercise. But what's interesting, what's good? How does this all link together as one particular concept?

Speaker 1
Well, I mean, that's a lot to try and get your head around, isn't it? When you bombarded with all these technologies, it must be like going into, I don't know, a sweet shop for you guys. But I mean, they're starting with that first point, then about performance and speed. How have you imagined that in this suit? Because I mean, I've read that you're continuing with this sort of sharp skin texture, the compression? Yeah, how have you gone about it? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's building upon it. And obviously, Sharkskin is a big part of the fast skin story in what we've done. Because what a great way for innovation is to look to nature and biomimicry, because essentially, nature is designing all the time, and the good designs carry on and the bad designs or the designs that aren't able to survive for as long as the theory states kind of get weeded out. And so you kind of end up with these really kind of perfectly designed things for for the environment in which they live. So we can look at those and understand well, how can we learn from from that design that's kind of happened, sometimes through millions of years of evolution. And specifically, we looked at, obviously, sharks, and we've looked at other kinds of fish and things based in water, because they have to be as efficient as possible moving through the water, because if they're not efficient, that using too much energy, and obviously then survival of the fittest, and so what we've done in our current suit, which is the the intent, that speeder laser intensities, pure intent is that we've kind of moved on the idea of shark skin, and textures, from just being all over the suit to in particular locations. And the future suit is kind of taking that to another extreme of not just textures that are passive, but then textures that are more active, that will change and adapt during a race for different movements. So you may need the suit to have a certain hydrogen Namic performance when you're swimming in straight line. But when you're turning, you need to do something else. And how can you preempt that? How can you get the suit to be reactive to the to the to the to the swimmer, and then pairing that up with personalization is that everybody's body is different. And so the textures, or the type of namics needed for a certain body shape between even just simply a tall person and a shorter person is going to be different. So how can we adapt those and personalise those textures to that particular person?

Speaker 1
And this is where the 3d scanning comes in. Is that right?

Speaker 2
Yeah, correct. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's an idea of like, how do we get an understanding of that swimmer, and who they are? And then how do you then through the clever science of applying those kind of technologies into the, to the suit, so that when that person wears that suit in the future, it's not a suit? For everybody, it's a suit for them. And, you know, we see that even now trying to, with our elite athletes get suits that are the right fit for them, because they have not abnormal when it's abnormal, but they have athletic body shapes, which are very different to someone on the high street type thing and very extremes and things. And I think that in the future, that those extremes will be able to be managed. And I think the extremes won't be as to have to be as extreme for you to, to be able to personalise that, that that garment to them. 

Speaker 1
And I also read that you've managed to sort of include AI into the suit that sort of monitors and almost live coaches, athletes, and, and obviously, that must help to improve technique and performance. So are you able to sort of tell me a bit about what you're imagining there?

Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. And I think it's a really interesting area of sport at the moment in terms of data and big data and data sources and pulling in lots of information from lots of places, and then being able to process process that information and get a result from it. There's been a movement in most sports of wearables and devices that you can wear or put on an even be incorporated into the garment itself to capture data. And and that's exactly how we're looking at this particular idea is that, how can we put a what we call a node, so a distribution of sensors around the suit, that then can feed information back into a central place that can be processed in real time extremely quickly, and then fed back to the user via some sort of haptic or audio or whatever it would be? So essentially, what we're looking at is how can we take data that's not only from the swing of themselves, but maybe from the external environment, and then feed that back, but then the AI element of it is how is it able to take all that data in a really smart way, process it and maybe even use historical data or other data that be trained to know what's the right information at the right time to give to the swimmer, and predict potentially how that's going to improve their swim. So, the really most basic way to look at it would be, you know, if you're swimming along, if the if the, the, the data capture is capturing the movement of the body, it knows, and it knows where you are in the pool, that it can tell you the most optimum place that you need to turn to be able to get the best, or the quickest turn, or, you know, or how far from the wall at what point if you've got to go in for your the touch, as opposed to taking another stroke, or, or if if this is really, as I say, very booster, is it that actually you're pulling a little bit harder on one side than on another. Or actually, maybe you're just knowing that it's a 400 metre item that you've got to do that if you put too much exertion in, it knows from your historical data, when you've raced this race before, that you need to have a certain level of energy or reserves for that last 50. And if you're looking at what the data is pulling in from the beginning, it's saying well, actually, you're probably going a little bit too hard right now. So you need to back off to make sure that you've got enough for the race. And again, it's being able to take very complex data, and process it in a way that would not be possible from a human looking at graphs are as easy, but being able to do that in real time, potentially as well.

Speaker 1
Wow. I mean, that that really is impressive. And I know this is all like maybe, you know, years in the future. But of course, yeah. Is this actually possible? Because when you think of like smart textiles, and I'm assuming that was some sort of electronic money did, uh, can you use that in water? Because it doesn't seem to be compatible? In my head anyway.

Speaker 2
Water is a really big problem when it comes to electric cars, for sure. And, yeah, it's the challenges are there absolutely, there is there's definitely and we're aware of kind of research institutions and stuff who are looking into these kinds of sensors that are able to measure it in water, some of it is that the actual kind of innovation is going to be around actually protection from the water rather than integration into the water. So how can we create sensors that can sense the world but also be protected from that quite harsh environment. And so the, the research is there, and you know, there are sensors that are available now, that and technologies where you can protect them from the water. But there's a lot of kind of work needed to be done in that. And it's going to be through, you know, chemical finishes, different materials. Also how that like I don't think we've kind of got it or anybody necessarily got it perfect it and the integration into that into that fabric or garment that's going to take time to work out and to see how it works. And there's other things like where's the location of these going to be? And where's the optimum position? And and how's that going to affect what the environment in which it's going to experience or the environment experiences and what effect that would have. So there's definitely sensing in closing, obviously, adding water and chlorinated water or saltwater, if you're an open water swimmer can be a real headache for sure. 

Speaker 1
And I mean, while we're on this topic of sort of wearables and sensors, and I understand that you've also included an energy harvesting fabric in this 4.0 suit. What do you mean by that? Exactly? I mean, how is that going to aid the swimmer.

Speaker 2
So obviously, one of the big kind of challenges within all industries at the moment, where there is smart clothing or smart devices is the battery and powering these things. And the pace at which the world is moving in terms of sensors in the hardware is much quicker than it is in the battery powering the size of batteries, because it's quite a linear relationship in terms of well, if you need more battery, you have to increase the battery size. And as you reduce the battery size is the amount of power that you can supply reduces. So there are actually some research and technologies out there at the moment where it's using the the body temperature and also the difference in body temperature, with the water or to kind of different mediums to be able to create power, there's actually an article that's come out in the last few days that was reading about the future of being able to power devices from the sweat from your fingertips. And it's, again, it's what it's there's two sides of the equation essentially is that it's being able to create the energy from from these these processes, these fabrics that are going to be able to harness harvest the, the or create the energy from this different medium or or whatever the technique or phenomenon is. But on the other side, it's also trying to improve the efficiencies of whatever the hardware that it's powering. So the sensors need to be super efficient and DLT low powered and things so we've got to look at it on both sides. I think a lot of the work at the moment and if you look at iPhones and things it's a Making things much more efficient to increase battery site battery performance, rather than making the battery able to hold more charge for its volume, because it's just so difficult. So this particular area is really interesting, because obviously, if you're swimming and having a big battery pack, it actually doesn't really work. And so it's how do we power those really complex sensors? Or that that processing unit on board through that energy harvesting? And how much? How efficient can we make that that energy harvesting kind of technology in the future as well through the fabrics would be really interesting to see how that kind of if you drew a graph of the performance, how steep that will be in time with the research? 

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. Okay, well, I mean, just moving on, then you mentioned that sustainability, obviously, was one of the three main things you wanted to focus on. And there's some really cool things included in this suit that that I've read. The first one I want to mention is apparently you're working with bacteria to create. So how does that work? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, it's, yeah, I think that the bacteria is bioengineered fabrics, and it's generated from the microbes and the bacteria, and that enables the performance materials, but also not only the materials, but you know, the transducers and the bio transducers to create certain performance, or actions of fabrics in the suit. And I think what it is, is that, you know, at the moment, a lot of suits are made from a non sustainable, not non sustainable, but a finite resource in terms of, you know, the plastics and like the basic oil based fabrics, at some point that they're coming from that. And it's really trying to flip it on its head and go, well, let's have a look at where are the other really far out kind of ways that fabrics are going to be made in the future. And this kind of idea of really making it from the microbes and bacteria that kind of generate these fabrics, and there'll be biodegradable, grown from live organisms. It's just a new kind of way of creation, creating fabrics in a much more sustainable way that we've really wanted to do. Just veer away from, oh, it's, it's recyclable, because it doesn't solve the problem, we've got to look at this as a whole ecosystem. And sustainability is a huge challenge across all of the industry at the moment, and it will be continuing forward. And I think that what we don't want to do is just kind of feel like, oh, let's find like, let's make a suit that's recyclable, that doesn't feel like future enough. Now, bacteria and microbe based fabrics definitely aren't, and they're out there. And they're being developed. And they say, these are the things that in the future that we feel kind of like could be a really great solution to the sustainability issue. Because what we don't want to be doing is what we can't do is continue to do what we do now, because it's creating so much harm to the planet, and it's not going to be something we'll be able to do long term. So it's how can we how can we find that solution?

Speaker 1
Yeah, and I mean, we mentioned earlier that obviously, water isn't not really a friend to electronics, but I can't imagine it's really a friend to like bacteria. And we'll pretend I mean, if you're in saltwater, marine environment, for example, I mean, could it biodegrade? Like on you what I mean? Is that going to be quite a big challenge?

Speaker 2
It's a great question. And again, this is where we have to look at that thread. And we're taking this thread right back to, to its where it is right now. Where it will be in 20 years time, there's absolutely a tonne of challenges that that technology has got to overcome, in that if it's sitting in a lab right now, you could put it in water and it could dissolve. But that is kind of the beauty of research. And the beauty of innovation is that these problems are the ones that need to be solved and overcome. And that's something as a brand like Speedo in the IT department that I work in innovation, we look to fund and support and work on these guys with because ultimately we want to solve problems. So we're not going to find a technology right now, that's perfect for 20 years time because there's 20 years of time and effort that needs to go into it. So and it may be that we look at that particular thread, and it's not able to be solved in the time that that we kind of set. And in a theoretical world, if we got into 20 years time, if those fabrics still aren't suitable for water, well, then it's a challenge that needs to be continuously looked at and tried to solve. So yeah, it's a dissolving swimsuits. Probably not what we're looking for, but it wouldn't be ideal. That's

Speaker 1
no, no. Okay, so we've sort of mentioned about all the different elements of this suit. And as I keep saying it is still just a concept, but I mean, how would you, perhaps in theory, go about manufacturing, something that has all these different components and challenges? And how expensive would it perhaps be? It's?

Speaker 2
Yeah, great question. I think it's one of those things where we've got to look At not constraining our thoughts on the way that products are made now, and and the the supply chains and the methods and because I think sometimes you can see that them as obstacles as opposed to things challenges that can be overcome. So I don't know the answer to the question of how do you construct this suit with all these great technologies. And if we look at automation, and the way that the current industry is going and improving that side of things, I can definitely feel that to be able to be able to manage all these different components and things that they would need to be some level of automation in this. And then when it comes to cost, it's really, I mean, it's a really good question, because obviously, these concepts look really great. But then you look at all the technologies in them, and you're like, Okay, well, yeah, that's going to be expensive. But again, this is again, another challenge. And the beauty of the innovation world is that, you know, the challenge is how do you make something cheaper? Like first is like, make it possible through and that's kind of your transformative innovation or your breakthrough innovation, your sustaining innovation that follows it is like, okay, how can we make this process more efficient? How can we get materials more efficiently? How can we process it? How can we all those type of things, so you only have to look at the first when the first iPhone was released. I think if you wanted to make the latest iPhone at the time that the original iPhone was released, it would cost you several 100,000 pounds. And it's because all the technologies basically become much more cheap and mature, and people get better at making things and stuff. So if it's funny situations, if we tried to make that suit now, it probably cost us millions. If it didn't dissolve in water, as we've mentioned, but in 20 years time, if those technologies mature, and then they and then they people innovate, and they make them much more affordable, then the thought would be that yes, it could be definitely within the realms of affordability. And over time, everything gets cheaper because, you know, technologies move on. So it's, it's, it's, if you want to buy one right, you got to place an order for one right now. Definitely a few million pounds. I think I'll take I'll take an order for that. Maybe.

Speaker 1
Gosh, yeah, that might break the bank just a little

Speaker 2
badly won that gold medal. And then if you actually did buy it, it wouldn't be race legal. So probably bit bit defeating the object. 

Speaker 1
But yeah, well, that's what I wanted to come back to. I mean, even if he managed to come over, you know, overcome all these challenges that we've mentioned. And I mean, I think I read that this suit could potentially potentially break records and improve Sprint's by, say, 4%. So, I mean, do you think that even if you developed it, the legislation would catch up? And actually, yeah, it could be redundant? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. it possibly could. And I think, you know, as a brand, we want to be at the forefront we want to be leading. And that's what Speedo has always done and, and, and what we continue to do in this world, and specifically in, in Fasken, in what we do there, and, you know, there's innovations that we're working on now, I know the Olympics starts in a, as we record this anyway, in a week's time, you know, that Olympics is long in my memory now, because I'm already looking ahead to 24 with Paris. And so we're, we're delivering innovations in there, that you know, are going to be leaving as well. The challenge is, is obviously, it's it's, it's a two way street with the governing body and the governing body are trying to protect the sport, which we totally respect and understand. And actually, it's something we've always done as well, all the rule changes that came after 2008 Were actually nothing to do with the speedo suit. It was with all the competitors trying to copy our suit, but couldn't because we tied it up with so much IP and they started to make seats out of neoprene and, and things like that. So what we have to do is we have to work with the governing body and the people who who run the sport and the rules in the sport, which is the with this fina, we sit on a committee with our competition with other brands, and we lobby fina as a group. So we have very close relationships and have really good working relationship with Fina. So I think what we have to do is show our thinking and make sure that we are respectful of what they're doing, but also trying to move the sport on and making it you know, interesting, exciting and engaging for for the public, because that's going to secure the future of swimming as well as because if it's not an exciting thing to watch or interesting, and sometimes you need a bit of controversy to make it interesting, then isn't going to be a sport that necessarily people want to be involved or engaged with and things and that's, you know, that's something that we feel our role in this as well. So we hunters have respect for Feanor and all the rules we abide by them. We've never ever had a suit that's not abided by the rules and we continue to have that. But we definitely would these type of suits would be pushing the pushing the envelope and we're really prepared to do that. And there's no way that we would go too far with it without fear. Let's buy in because otherwise it would be quite a wasted investment.

Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, lots to think about there that I hadn't actually considered. So that's interesting. Now, unfortunately, we're running out of time, I always seem to run out of time on this podcast. But just just lastly, then you've already mentioned, obviously, the Tokyo Olympics are coming up, and you've already got your mind set on Paris in a few years time. So what sort of realistic innovations? Could we perhaps look forward to then? 

Speaker 2
For 24? How much how much can I tell you it's what I will say is material is a massive part of the innovation it because there's so much that's reliant on the material and performance. So you know, performance in terms of speed and add speed with water is, is really, you know, always going to be they're always looking to innovate in that space, the rules that have been put in place, make it more difficult, but not impossible to innovate in that space. And we push the boundaries on those and the envelope as best as we can. So there's kind of some exciting stuff in that through the fabrics, finishes and whatnot. And the other thing that we've kind of looked at is, everything that we do has to be driven by the consumer. And I think that we've got to make sure that we think about all of our consumers who use this suit, not just the very, very elite, because they're very important. But there's a lot more people who are using the suit, who aren't Olympians versus the Olympians. And because the funeral was if you're a swimmer at a gala or in, you know, London, somewhere at youth level, you're going to be wearing the same suit that Caleb Dressel, or, you know, Brian Murphy or Duncan Scott is wearing at the Olympics, because it has to be the same product. So we've kind of not only looked at the very elite, we're also looking at what the needs of that, that those other consumers are and delivering things that are going to be valuable to them that necessarily wouldn't necessarily be as valuable to an Olympian who isn't probably having using the suit in the same way or having the same relationship with the suit. But a lot of it is driven driven by the materials. And it's really exciting. And although we look at 24, the way that we were working is when we look beyond even that, and obviously this this project is evidence of that. But we have to continuously if we just think about 24, then that's kind of like a deadline. And then you've got to think beyond it because there's some of the technologies are something that could take much longer to develop. And if you don't ever look far enough ahead, then you've kind of kind of limit yourself in what's possible. Yeah.

Speaker 1
Well, that's so exciting. And like it must be a great job actually just sort of scouting technology, seeing what's possible. Can it work, so yeah, absolutely. Well, Rob, I mean, it really has been great to sort of wrack your brains about this new concept of data. Thank you for coming on the show. And I almost wish I could time hop 20 years into the future and actually see if this all you know plays out. So yeah, thank you.