Ep.71: Motif aims ‘to make traditional weaving part of today’s solutions’ Ankit Podcast

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Ep.71: Motif aims ‘to make traditional weaving part of today’s solutions’

The WTiN Podcast is back for another series, and this time we kick off by talking to Jackie Corlett, founder and director of Motif and Motif Handmade.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Jackie Corlett

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen, and I'm part of the team here at WTiN. And this is the WTiN, and podcast. Join me and my guests every other week as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN and podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I am joined by Jackie Corlett, who is the founder and director of Motif and Motif Handmade. In this episode, Jackie talks all about artisanal weaving, from how we support local communities to how it reduces waste, while also being a scalable, accessible, and financially competitive way of manufacturing.

Hello, Jackie, and thank you very much for joining me today. How have you been since we last spoke?

Speaker 2
Been very well, thank you. Things are coming down here in the US. And yeah, we're getting slowly back to normal.

Speaker 1
Again, get your base in Illinois, if I remember is that is that right? That's right.

Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah. Here in central Illinois, in the prairies. Right. Interesting.

Speaker 1
Well, I mean, as I've already said, Thank you so much for coming on the show, because we're going to be talking about something that I haven't actually covered on the podcast, really. And that's artisanal textile manufacturing. And this is something that your company called motifs specialises in. But before we go into all of that, do you mind just talking a bit more about yourself and your career background today? How did you get to where you are?

Speaker 2
Yeah, thank you so much for opening up this space for artisanal textiles. Because, yes, I am. That's been my life and continues to be my life. So I'm just excited. There's the opportunity now for platforms like this to be able to get the word out about just how fantastic they are. So yeah, I guess I started off my life in textiles through my degree at Middlesex University in London. It was Middlesex poly back then. And after I'd graduated in constructed textiles, I worked in London freelance for about five years. And then I was hired to work with hand Weaver's in Bangladesh. And the point was with this fair trade company to help develop textiles that were suited to European markets. That was in 1989. And so it was quite a long time before computers and things like that. But I mean, I absolutely remember the day my big hook happened. And that was just being in there with workshop, surrounded by the monsoon heat and the weavers clacking away and singing songs to keep rhythm and all of that stuff. And I just remember thinking, This is amazing. Because, you know, in London, I've been working and had you the metric really for success was just the bottom line. And, and it was great to know your fabrics were appreciated and things like that. But here, yes, the bottom line is important in terms of profit, but it was also about, you know, these guys, they were educating their daughters were in school, their health was good. They were keeping their families from moneylenders. There was all kinds of stuff happening as a result of them being fair trade employed, and producing fabrics that were desirable in foreign markets. And so I was like, How can I go back? So yeah, that was when I was hooked. So that was kind of 8990. And I'm still involved today.

Speaker 1
And so before we go any further, do you mind just telling me what you mean by Fair Trade fabrics? I mean, why is that so important? And interesting.

Speaker 2
Great question. Because fair trade is a is a term. I think, in the UK, and in Europe, it's much more completely understood than still yet here in the US. But essentially, what we're talking about when we're talking about fair trade is like for us, for people who get regular jobs, you kind of sign a contract, you have an interview, you know, what your work is going to be how much you're going to get paid when you leave is all that kind of stuff and you signed contract and Yes, agreed. In most of the world that doesn't have especially in places like Bangladesh, where the abuse that happens in employment situations is extreme. And so what we do as part of the fair trade movement is that we commit to employing people in respectful ways, just the way you and I would expect to be employed. And we make sure it happens, even though there's nobody breathing down our neck to make sure that we follow certain codes. We make sure that that happens. And so far in terms of textiles, we're talking about the Fair Trade principles, yes, of fair wages, of safe employment of no harassment in the workplace, the freedom to associate, you know, kind of unionised. Definitely tenants about ethical practices in regards to the environment. Just promoting opportunities to get that message out is really what the fair trade movement is about. 

Speaker 1
Well, that's really interesting that you've explained it like that, and it makes everything so much clearer. And even now, I find it surprising that we even need something like fair trade, because, as you say, it's something that we're so used to here in the UK and in the US. So the fact that it's not normal elsewhere is still quite astonishing, really. But I mean, do you mind telling me now a bit more how you actually came to produce the company motif?

Speaker 2
Yeah, I'd love to, just to your point on how astonishing it is that we still even need Fairtrade, one of the groups I love speaking to is young kids. Because when I explain Fairtrade to them, they really are astonished. It's like, you mean, not everything is fair trade? Why you want? Why not? So you're absolutely right. I mean, why should it be in this day and age, but it is so work to be done. Which kind of does bring me to well, how I really got motif started, after I had worked in Bangladesh for about five years, as a designer working with this particular group. I saw that there was a lot of design talent in Bangladesh. But that that point, in the early 90s, there was still no design education curriculum, per se, in the national curriculum. And so I went back to the UK, I was back at Middlesex for my master's I developed that came back to Bangladesh, with a curriculum that I'd figured out and part was part of training tutors and students in a couple of the first private design colleges in Bangladesh, which was really exciting. And it was in the midst of doing that, that I just was, like, I've got to actually be doing stuff as well, because, I mean, being an educator was great, but I just knew I could help get more people into a safe and respectful workplace. And you know, that that was still my pulse. And so that was when I funded I founded motif in Bangladesh. So that was in 98. And founded that with basically the income from my teaching and along with two other Bangladeshi partners at the time, and so we got started and that was great because you know, I had this wonderful space now that I could design textiles and get them all out there or so I thought, because I this again, it was 9899 it was before the internet and computers and a very quick well, not quickly enough, but within a couple of years I've realised I can't do it. The market is not ready for Fairtrade textiles. And I can't be in Bangladesh at the design and production end and at the marketing and promotion end in Europe. So at that point, fair trade, bags, accessories, home linens, things like that, they were definitely gaining a market. So I what we now call pivot. I did that. And because I already was employing women and Weaver's and everybody at that time, so I basically shifted to designing bags and accessories. And so that's basically what we've been on. In the last couple of decades, but it was probably just just about three years ago, I was at a conference and surrounded by all these dynamic young social entrepreneurs ready to change the world. And I was like, I used to be you. I was, you know, just feeling a bit burnt out and but being around them all for a few days was just fantastic. Because it was contagious. And I realised, hang on, I'm still me. And I've got this amazing network of well established relationships with weavers and artisans of all kinds. And my business is still running, I'm going to start designing textiles, again, the markets ready for them. And so that was when I set up motif handmade here in the US. Because during that time, I'd met married an American and come and was living here. And so that's how this next iteration of motif is, is in this nascent stage of evolving into really focusing back on on the hand woven, artisanal textiles. Yeah, in Fairtrade context. 

Speaker 1
Right. So just to clarify, you currently have two businesses, there's motif which you set up a while ago, and that's based on the production in Bangladesh. And then a few years ago, you set up motif handmade, which is more to do with the design. Is that right? Or if I misunderstood? 

Speaker 2
No, that's absolutely right. Yes. So motif in Bangladesh is very much about the production side of things. So we do small batch production for companies there and still designing products, but now much more led by the design of our clients. But the motif handmade, definitely working with weavers who are designing their own fabrics, but also the capacity now to design my own collections and work with designers who want to design collections. Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1
Okay. And so do you mind just telling me a bit more about the fabrics and the techniques and the products that you offer? I think I I mean, I think among all the traditional things on your website, I'm sure I've read that you work with recycled fabrics as well now. So yeah, just tell me a bit more about all the stuff that you do.

Speaker 2
Oh, wow. How long have we got? Yes? Know, I'll, yeah, the wonderful thing about Bangladesh is that the wealth of textile traditions that have just been there for generations are still alive and kicking there. I mean, every district you go to has its own unique form of weaving that produces beautiful individual textiles. At this time, I'm focusing on just very simple to shaft looms doing plain weave. Even on those two shaft looms, there are techniques, some in the audience who may know Jamdani weaves booty waves, there are ways in which yarns get manipulated in just simple two shaft weaves that create phenomenal diversity of fabrics. So, I'm choosing to work with just very simple structured looms two shafts to begin with, because I just want to be able to get the most people employed as possible. And that is where where it's at. But the other really exciting development that's happened over this last decade is a company in Bangladesh, called cyclo recycled fibres. And what they've been developing is taking the waste from garment factories and breaking it down into fibre, spinning that fibre back into yarn. And then we are taking that yarn and weaving by hand with it. So what we ultimately have there is a zero waste yarn being turned into fabric by a zero carbon process. And in that same process employing multiple people because within a A hand woven process. It's not just the weaver at the loom, who was employed to prepare the yarn to get to the loom state requires about a dozen or more different steps. And at each step, you've got at least another one or two, maybe more people involved in each of those stages, which is why hand weaving happens in community. And that then tips another domino down in the chain. And that means that there is a lot less rural urban migration, which means that communities and families can more readily stay together. The stability that that then forms within an entire nation is exponential. So yeah, there's there's a lot of pardon the pun, a lot of threads that go together to pull all this into a into a very exciting development at this time.

Speaker 1
Yeah, it sounds it completely. But I mean, something that I wanted to ask you is, so far, you've made artisanal production sound really romantic? And all of this social benefits are seem fantastic, as well. But is this way of working, accessible and scalable? I mean, or is it just sort of, you know, something that will always be just, you know, community activity? If you see what I mean? 

Speaker 2
I absolutely see what you mean. And it's a very, very valid question. Because if I can just slip in a little bit of history here. Obviously, pre industrial revolution, every textile you ever used was hand crafted, was handmade. So you're talking from the sacks to put flour into the sails on ships, to the royal barricades that the elite were wearing everything, every single textile was handmade. So the prospect of scaling hand production is definitely there. And in Asia, that was not just pre Industrial Revolution. That was up until really just not too long ago, really. I mean, the industrial revolution, obviously heavily impacted Asia because of the trading of mill made cotton's back into India, which had supplied the raw cotton into the UK in the first place. So all of that trading, began to decimate the hand loom industry in Asia. And so, what we find is that, I mean, like when I was very first in Bangladesh, and even then it was declining, but like in the late 80s, early 90s, there were over a million active handloom Weaver's. And about 65% of that consumption was local. It was you know, in saris, Lumbees, bedsheets, mosquito nets, there was everything was produced, like, you know, as I say, about 65 70% of it was consumed locally. Now, just what are we talking 30 odd years later, it's less than a third of that. And only 25 30%, something like that this consumed locally now, because of the influx of the mill of the mill made textiles from China, from India from other places. And they're all you know, the polycotton easy to care for, whatever. So, and of course, the marketing of these and the price of them is, is so cheap. So what, what we have in Bangladesh, is a lot of mothballed looms, the skill is there. But the market is not there. And I really believe now and not just myself, I'm working with a number of weaving partners in Bangladesh as well. We really do see that the market is at such a stage now when we're looking at issues of sustainability. That, I mean, I'm not saying everything's gonna turn over to hand woven obviously, but for those brands that want to be serious about exploring significant issues of sustainability with their supply chains, I believe that we can get to a point where handloom fabric can be supplied to the garment industry in Bangladesh, and when you think about the supply chain, the reduction of of transactions that need to happen in the production of garments, if we can do that, that is going to be a huge step forward. And I believe it's absolutely scalable.

Speaker 1
Well, that's so interesting, because I think maybe most of the people listening to this podcast, they are maybe only interested in scalable things. And they might initially say, why is, you know, Jess, after artists know, naively, small company on but I mean, as you've just said, there's a lot of opportunity here. And that's so interesting. 

Speaker 2
Yeah, I think just to that point, you know, we're looking at investments into all kinds of textile developments, you know, using different resources and different technological advances. And they're all fantastic. We're all playing our own certain parts in the process. And I really believe that if we put the investment into the artisanal sector, we would find an immense amount of impact could start being returned for that investment.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm not surprised after hearing you speak today. But now, aside from scalability, another question I had was whether it's a lot more expensive to produce in this way. I mean, it's, well, I would imagine it is anyway, because I mean, it looks like so much more love and attention has gone into producing these fabrics. And I imagine it takes a lot longer to produce them as well. So are they more expensive, and is that a barrier at all,

Speaker 2
I think what is really exciting about as we were just talking then about reducing the numbers of stages within which textiles have to go through to get produced into garments, or other products. And that is where even though being Fairtrade produced, the textiles themselves, may actually become the more expensive than a mill produced textile, the number of stages that that Fair Trade product goes through in order to actually get to market. There are so few people involved in that chain, that the margins that get added on to products that go from production to the market space, are so limited compared to what mass produced, goods go through. So for example, for people buying from motif handmade, we are literally one or two people removed from the person who wove it. So the margins that get added on are so minimal in comparison to the number of traders, that mass produced fabrics go through, that we can land our prices in to the marketplace at a very competitive rate, and, and still still be attainable for designers to work with. And then the other amazing thing that we have is that when designers want to start exploring this and coming on board with this, we can work with very flexible mo cues. Like I'm working at the moment on a yardage on the loom, just 150 yards of fabric on the loom, and in that with a well designed warp, you can weave across six different wefts. You can have 25 yards of six coordinating fabrics in one warp, and have you know that that's your runway collection, you don't have to go and buy, you know, 150 250 yard minimums of six different fabrics to create your collection and kind of try and bring them around deadstock or whatever else, there's much more flexibility and freedom. And within that then also you have the reduction of waste. 

Speaker 1
Right? And so essentially, what you're saying is not only are you able to cut out the middleman in terms of margins and prices, but you're also actually able to make it more accessible because I mean, there are smaller and newer companies out there who can't meet those large minimums. And so, I mean, it just sounds like like what a good idea why haven't people been doing this for you know, however long?

Speaker 2
Yeah. And you see, this is where it and it's on every in every field of industry. You know, technology is fantastic. And it you know, that's what humanity does, you know, we kind of explore and we discover and we create, and it's wonderful, it keeps moving things forward. But to have a market to be able to consume all of that new, then there has to be disposability as well. Because otherwise, where's all the new gonna go? And so it begins to beget itself in this. Yeah, kind of ferris wheel really of, of production and consumption, which is, you know, the mess that we find ourselves in now. And that really has only happened since the industrial revolution. So that it's not that that was wrong, obviously, you know, there's been immense progress made in all kinds of fields from that. And so I think, you know, where we're at now, you know, by virtue of the pandemic, really, bizarrely enough, horrific ly enough. There's this literal, global pause, where people are saying, hang on a minute. Is that really? What's happening? I never knew that before. I never knew I had to wait and have an entire supply chain, what's the thing everybody's thinking about toilet rolls? That's what they were thinking about at the very beginning. So why is there a whole supply chain for toilet rolls, because they take up a lot of space, they can't have them stocked up in warehouses, like that. And so you know, all of that. So now we're at a point where we can reflect and we can take the best of what the processes and everything that the industrial revolution has afforded us and other newer in the digital revolution and all of these elements, we can start taking the best of these and apply them to the ancient traditions that have sustained us literally since the beginning. And kind of boost them kind of enable them to leapfrog into a context now that is going to serve us all, I really do believe it.

Speaker 1
What I mean, it's not just you that said that either. I've spoken to a few people over the last year who have said that we're we've almost become so technical that we're enjoying, like the idea of reverting back to a simpler way of life. And I think not only have you talked about like zero waste and things like that, but I think artisanal fabrics is something that people would just sort of care more for. And even that would increase the lifespan and the longevity of the product, which also helps to sort of bolster sustainability as well. Really? 

Speaker 2
Absolutely. I think that's another whole topic for discussion is how we actually relate to fabric. Since I'll pass of our being, but yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1
Now a question I had. I mean, you you've spoken about being able to scale it, and there are so many opportunities here. But do you ever worry that you'll eventually lose this sort of the the values that you've, you've put in place the you know, the bigger you grow? Is that ever a concern of yours? 

Speaker 2
You know, it's very interesting, it's a good observation, just because one of the privileges I have having been in this field for so many years now, when I first moved to Bangladesh, in 89, it really was the very nascent part of the fair trade movement. It was the it was the inter International Federation of alternative traders, is what we had, which ultimately became the World Fair Trade Organisation, many will know now as W FTM. And at that time, you know, in the late 80s, early 90s, you could literally count on your hands, the number of fair traders that were in operation, and if you didn't know them personally, you were just one or two people removed from them. And then the internet. And that was amazing for all kinds of reasons. But it also allowed this anonymity in so that you couldn't just trust what you knew people were saying because you didn't necessarily know them. And that's when the third party accreditation systems began to evolve, which are very necessary and I think really, they have kept pace with the developments the WF to in the last few years has shifted its system slightly to to accommodate some of these changes. And so I believe that as the as the accreditation systems continue to move in robust development alongside of the growth of the industry, the scalability of the industry, we will we will still be able to maintain those Yes, it'll be more challenging, because the more people you have in anything gets more challenging. But that doesn't mean to say it can't be done. Right.

Speaker 1
Okay. Now, I mean, we've already spoken. I mean, all we've spoken about the benefits to have a production. But I know that when we were speaking before this podcast, you mentioned that another benefit is how you would actually allow customers to design their own fabrics as well. Are you able to sort of expand on what you're doing there? 

Speaker 2
Yes, absolutely. I think it's, it was something actually, as I started motif handmade here in the US. Unfortunately, my first collection arrived here about the same time as COVID. So that's been a bit of a challenge to kind of start getting the momentum in, in reaching out to people. But what that's doing, and I'm working with a couple of designers now, and what they're able to do is follow a process with me, whereby I can explain the very basic premise of what it takes to weave a fabric, because I thought, Oh, wow, designers are just going to love it, that they can design their own fabrics. But what I've realised is that people are, why should they be able to because I've never even thought of the possibility of being able to do that before. And so I've realised I've had to go kind of step another couple of steps back and actually help people gain the confidence of knowing that they can design their own fabrics. So I have a little freebie on my website, just for people to sign up to subscribe to motif handmade, and my give the freebie of very simple. My web designer told me it had to be simple. So it basically says, five steps to design and produce your own sustainable hand woven fabric. So if anybody's interested in that, please head to the website motif handmade.com and sign up for our newsletter, you just scroll down to the bottom and you can get hold of that PDF. It's very simple. And just really helps designers get a handle on how with you've got one striped warp that you've designed, then you can get multiple coordinating fabrics from one warp created with that stripe. And we just go through the simple process of how you go about that.

Speaker 1
Right. Okay, interesting. So far today we've I mean, we've talked about the great ways of artisanal production in terms of both social and environmental sustainability and all the possibilities in this area. But is there anything that still needs improving? Is there any way that artists and could still be supported at all?

Speaker 2
Oh, yes. I mean, I think the one of the reasons why I'm starting quite small at the moment, I mean, I do have partners that are working at a higher scale, as well, yeah, I mean, we can, we don't just work at small MOQ, we can work on 1000s and 10s, of 1000s of metres of fabric going through that's hand woven as well. But what I really am keen to do is development on the productivity and on the quality of the fabrics. Just that's definitely an area that we need to always be looking to improve. And that goes for mill woven fabrics to you know, I mean, the the machines are always in need of tweaking and whatever to get them working to full productivity. But again, one of the interesting things that I'm going to be working on soon with a university is a project looking at harnessing the energy that the weavers produce as they are creating the fabric and seeing what we can do with that energy locally. And so that's, that's an area that as you know, when you look when you're asking about what can be developed, what's what needs to be worked on. I think there are Yeah, the productivity, the quality. And then well, the efficiency as part of the, the productivity, but just the energy efficiency, just looking at the impact on on the environment of what's of what's of where things are being made, is also a key part. 

Speaker 1
Right? So we're talking about that the movement, that sort of kinetic energy that could be somehow harvested and turned into something that could be used to power something else. Is that is that way what you mean? 

Speaker 2
Absolutely. Yeah. I always love working with students. Students have got the most amazing capacity to make connections and join the dots that yeah, and they have the space to do it as well. You know, they're there in education. And they're there for a reason. So yeah, I always enjoy partnering with students wherever possible. 

Speaker 1
Hmm. Well, that sounds so innovative that yeah, it's something I would have never thought of. But someone down the line thought of it. And it sounds like it could be a really interesting area to explore. Now, unfortunately, Jackie, we're sort of running out of time today. And I mean, I have so many questions. I mean, this is quite a new subject for me. But you know, we'll save those for another day. But just to leave on I mean, what other plans does motif have for the future? I mean, what what is your dream goal for the company? 

Speaker 2
Oh, my dream, God probably hinted at it massively. But it's, it really is to be part of a network of hand weavers in Bangladesh, that are bringing the ancient traditions forward. And to be part of today's solutions, the exponential impact on the UN's Sustainable Development Goals that can be directly connected to the impact of what can happen with artisanal production, not just in fabrics. Bangladesh, actually, there's a report out by powered by the people I think that is, but there's a report out on creative manufacturing in the handmade, and Bangladesh sells exports more handmade products, even than India. And the artisanal skills available in Bangladesh are phenomenal. If it's one thing Bangladesh has a lot of its hands, we're a very densely populated country, and there's a lot of hand skilled hands available. So yeah, that's really what I want us to be part of is really championing the the artisanal sector and seeing it come mainstream about

Speaker 1
I mean, I wish you all the best with that, that that really would be amazing, wouldn't it? Well, I mean, Jackie, as I said, that's all we've got time for unfortunately. But once again, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I mean, I've learned a lot and I mean, it's yeah, it's just been great to learn about the opportunities within this area of manufacturing. So thank you very much.

Speaker 2
Thank you very much, Jess. It's been a real treat. And if anybody wants to connect with me personally feel free just on Instagram. You can DM me it's just motif dot Jackie