Ep. 72: Fashion For Good launches The Renewable Carbon Textiles Project Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 72: Fashion For Good launches The Renewable Carbon Textiles Project

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is Georgia Parker, innovation manager at Fashion For Good.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Georgia Parker

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen, and I'm part of the team here at WTiN. And this is the WTiN, and podcast. Join me and my guests every other week, as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN and podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I am joined by Georgia Parker, the innovation manager at fashion for goods. Georgia talks about the organization's newly launched scheme called the renewable carbon textiles project, this year's accelerator programme and the solutions that have particularly caught her eye. And the importance of quantitative data to prove that next gen materials will indeed be better than those we're hoping to replace.

Hello, and welcome to the WTiN podcast, Georgia, how are you doing?

Speaker 2
I'm good. Thanks. How are you?

Speaker 1
Yeah, not bad. I think I'm in England. You're British, I think but not in Britain. But we've got horrible weather here. It's not very summery. I don't know about what it is with you.

Speaker 2
Yeah, also raining where I am. So hopefully it will get back to the sunny days that we had last week. 

Speaker 1
I know, hopefully, it's not going to be just a blip. And that was it. That would be depressing. But there we are. Anyway. So I mean, I've invited you on the show today to talk about fashion for good and the work that the organisation has been doing recently. But before we go any further, do you mind just introducing fashion for good and explain what the organisation does exactly for those who are say less, or they're not familiar with you at all?

Speaker 2
Sure. So fashion for Good is a global innovation platform, essentially focused on using innovation and collaboration to drive change across the fashion supply chain. So there's two sides to our organisation. On the one hand, we have our innovation platform, which is where I work. And this is focused on industry change. So working with innovators, brands, retailers, manufacturers and investors to basically scale the most disruptive solutions across the supply chain. We've been working now for almost four years, and over four years now actually, and we've scouted over 2400 startups from all around the world, and then supported around 135 of them via our accelerator and scaling programmes. And essentially, you can think of us a little bit like the duct tape bringing together all of these different partners to dry for the projects and pilots in these spaces, essentially, with the aim of scaling up the solutions for widespread adoption across the industry. So we work closely with our 20 corporate partners to help make this happen. And we have a range of partners across the supply chain and ecosystem. Luxury players, sports brands, ecommerce platforms, and smaller, more disruptive players as well. So really fantastic group of stakeholders to be working with. And on the other hand, we are a convener for change. So we have the world's first interactive museum, which is dedicated to sustainable fashion. And this is really about engaging the wider public and educating them what they can do to change fashion for good. So as I'm sure most museums were, we were obviously closed for a long time because of everything that's been going on, but recently opened our doors again. And you can either visit in person, or through one of our digital tours, and which is really cool. So it basically maps out the past, present and future of the fashion supply chain. And you can see some of the different innovations that we're working with.

Speaker 1
 So we're actually is the museum base. 

Speaker 2
It is based in the centre of Amsterdam. So just as you come out of Central Station, you can just keep walking straight down and it's on your right hand side. So yeah, no excuses. It's right in the thick of it. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, so people visiting Amsterdam can add that to their list after the Anne Frank museum basically. Yeah, definitely. Uh, so I mean, talk about yourself then what exactly do you do in your role at the organisation so

Speaker 2
I've been at fashion for good for just over three years now and I'm an innovation manager. And what that means is I basically help orchestrate collaborations between the brand innovator manufacturer and and wider supply chain partners when needed in the areas of the supply chain that includes materials, wet and dry processing, digital acceleration and circular business models. And before fashion for good I was actually added us in their brand sustainability Team, although in another life, I actually started my career in finance at Deloitte. So a little bit of a pivot there. 

Speaker 1
Yeah. But I mean, it sounds great, though, how interesting. And industry you must work in with all these new startups and so many disruptive technologies that you said. So there's so many things, as you said that fashion for good does. But I think, Well, what I know you guys most for is your accelerator programme. And I mean, I didn't quite realise that you've scouted like 2000 or more companies. I mean, that is quite, you know, a success story. But I mean, how is the current cohort doing and what innovations have you been particularly intrigued by recently?

Speaker 2
Yeah, so the way that our programme works is we work with our partners to identify innovation hotspots where they might be focused on finding a particular solution, and then scout for innovations in those areas. So this current batch, which is number eight, is a mix of innovations with solutions in materials processing, end of use digital acceleration, packaging and impact tracking. So quite a range this time around. And what we've have been and will continue to do is to work closely with them over the nine months from March to December, on topics such as impact measurement, pilot development, investments, marketing and business strategy, as well as working on connecting innovators and partners together to facilitate projects between them. In terms of my favourite, it's always difficult to pick. But I think that there's some really exciting ones in this current batch. One of them includes an organisation called OSM shield who are basically making a non PRP, fast, high performance, durable water and oil repellency technology, which is basically free from PFCs, which is one of the really challenging innovation areas that we are always looking to address. This can be applied using traditional application methods and on all fibre types, which is super cool to see. And we're seeing there is increasing pest pressure from regulators from a policy perspective on finding solutions for these different types of chemistry. So really cool to have them as part of this batch. Another one is the herd. So the herd engineers, fibre pulp that's made from agricultural waste feedstock. And this can basically be used as replacement for this ghosts. And I think what's really exciting is that they use waste feedstocks, and uses less water and also less energy than conventional manmade cellulosic fibres.

Speaker 1
Yeah, they both sound really interesting. And I'm always in awe of these people. Because to even come up with the initial idea, I'm like, you must have a really cool brain to do that, I don't think I would ever come up with something so innovative, like what these companies are doing. So I mean, as I said, already, your job must be so interesting to get to sort of get to know these people, like learn more about how their processes work. Yeah, it's just such an interesting industry to be in at the moment. And, and as you say, hopefully, they can scale up they can work with you guys. And and you know, the general public will get to know them one day as well. That'd be amazing. 

Speaker 2
Yeah, and really, that's where we want to help them is to basically accelerate the development of their different solutions. And that's why, obviously, a big part of my role is focused on pilots, but through the accelerator, they also get all these different other areas of support that I mentioned earlier. And I think also, we have a fantastic group of mentors and advisors that we also work closely with to help if an innovator has a particular area that they're looking to focus on. 

Speaker 1
So I mean, are there any solutions that are you know, sort of like, I don't wanna use the word but you know, trending at the moment? I mean, are you saying that there's a lot of innovation in one particular area, maybe like the PFC free technologies, because there's legislation sort of like pushing it, I mean, what you see more and more of these days,

Speaker 2
There's two ends of the spectrum when it comes to this. So I think materials are always top of the innovation agenda. So within that it could be biomaterials, or recycled materials. In a slightly unsexy assister part of the supply chain, which includes pretreatment, dyeing and finishing, I think there's huge opportunity for innovation in that space, because you can really reduce the carbon water and chemistry impact in those stages of the supply chain. And the way that we looking at innovation in these two areas is either in the consumable so it could be a more sustainable dye stuff for chemistry talked about OSM shield before, or it could actually be like the process of how that dye stuff or chemistry is applied to the fabric and often if it's a process, it requires new machinery, which can be trickier to implement but you also get a bigger reward and payoff in terms of environmental footprint reduction. So I think from my perspective, if you're thinking about the conventional supply chains, really materials and processing, there's lots of opportunity there. And what you would really be looking for in the future is to combine innovation, so you'd have a more sustainable material that is then going through more sustainable process to be made into the products. If you're thinking a little bit more outside of the box. And futuristic, then I think digital acceleration has really advanced rapidly in this space over the last 18 months, I think COVID really fast forwarded the solutions that were needed, as brands and manufacturers looked to create digital samples to create digital showrooms to create digital selling, buying and selling between the brands and manufacturers, but also between the brands and the consumers. You know, virtual try on live shopping where you couldn't go into the store. And I think if you think even further than just digitising existing products, is virtual worlds. So one of the innovators that we have in our programme in our alumni is called the fabricant. And essentially, what they're looking to do is create a digital world in which you have digital only garments. And I think sometimes that can seem a little bit crazy, but it's where we're headed. And we're already heading, you know, you see in the gaming industry that people will pay like 100 pounds to get a Gucci belt for their avatar within Call of Duty or fortnight or something like that. And that is now starting to happen within the fashion space where actually you create a digital version of yourself that can then wear these different products in that world, which I think is amazing to see. And obviously a whole new way of thinking. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, totally. I mean, I was speaking to someone about the fabric and actually the other week, and they were saying it's perfect for this like Instagram era that we're in because a lot of people might just buy clothes, wear them once, post a picture on Instagram, and then it might end up in a charity shop or landfill. So if you could just cut that whole, you know, way of thinking out and just create something that's digital, and it actually looks lifelike. I mean, that could have a huge impact, I think, 

Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. And I think it's about actually enabling creativity and fluidity amongst everybody where like, actually, you could wear something that you might not want to wear in your everyday life. But actually your digital version of yourself can do that. And I think it's also what we don't want to do is just create what we already have in a digital space. It's really about like thinking, what other possibilities are there that we can really go beyond the physical realm? 

Speaker 1
Yeah, interesting. Now, I mean, aside from the accelerator programme, I know that fashion for could also conducts projects, and the latest being the renewable carbon textiles project. And I understand that this sort of aims to accelerate the development of PHP polymer fibres. Do you mind just sort of explaining I guess, first what PHA polymers, polymer fibres actually are, I mean, what how are they typically made, and so on? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, PHA is essentially a family of polymers. And what's exciting about this family of polymers is that they can be produced using waste feedstocks. So what you can use is either waste methane gas, or carbon dioxide, or it could be organic food waste that could otherwise be eaten. And you essentially feed this waste feedstocks to bacteria. So then the bacteria are the ones that would produce the polymer. So it's called a bacterial fermentation process essentially, get fat and full of, of the polymer and then you basically extract the PHA from the bacteria and convert it into pellets, which can then be used to make things like packaging, or fibres. Lots of different applications, particularly where you use a lot of single use plastic or conventional synthetic polymers. So PHA is very exciting because I think from a feedstock perspective, you can use waste feedstocks. Then when you look at end of use, it's also marine degradable and home compostable, which means that it would break down in a variety of different environments. So I think that's why we're particularly excited by it. Generally, till now, innovation in the fibre space within PHP has been fairly limited just because it's a relatively young polymer compared with some of the others and also its characters. stakes are often more suited to different applications. And so what this project really wants to do is see what's possible and prove what is possible to accelerate the fibre development and production and determine how we could then scale that within a traditional supply chain. So we've got a fantastic group of partners and innovators we're working with the loudest Foundation who basically provided funding for the project, best seller neurona, PVH, and WL Gore as well as three amazing innovators bio craft innovation fullcycle bio plastics and new light technologies. 

Speaker 1
Right. Okay. And I mean, I think I also read that Neary, the nonwovens. Institute, they're also involved as well, is that right? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, so they are our melt spinning partner. So essentially, what the role that scenario will play is that they will receive the pellets from each of the innovators and then basically run trials to produce the actual fibres. And there's like an iterative feedback loop to basically enable the innovators to further refine their formulation and technology to basically get it to the best that it can be. And I think what's really unique about this is the consortium aspects. So this would be very difficult to do on an individual brand and innovator basis. And what we're looking to do is basically bring together all of that knowledge, streamline the process, and really work together in a collaborative way to basically help accelerate the development of these different innovators. The aim is that what we're looking to replace is virgin polyester fibre, which, obviously, everybody I'm sure is aware, is used in up to 52% of global fibre production, and a huge amount of the impact from a fashion supply chain comes from raw materials. So lots of exciting opportunities to innovate in that space.

Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure. So let me just take a step back. So this project, then what what's the very first step? And like, I think I believe that you're doing this for a couple of years. So what is the timeline looking like? And what are you sort of hoping to achieve along the way,

Speaker 2
So the first step, we already kicked off, and that was a due diligence process. So we basically mapped the innovation landscape and selected innovators to go through the due diligence process, and then basically invited them to participate in the programme. Now what they're working on is the formulation development. And the next stage will be to kick off the melt spinning trials, which will then as I mentioned, essentially be multiple trials with like iterative feedback loops, to basically work on further refining the technology, specifically for five applications. After we've completed the melt spinning trials, we'll then go into end of use testing. And under the umbrella of end of use testing, we're running multiple different tests. So we're going to look at degradation, testing, working with ows, who will run soil, freshwater, landfill and marine environments, and basically run tests of the fibres in those four environments, basically, to see, does it actually degrade? You know, we're saying that it degrades, we're saying this is why we're excited by this polymer, but actually like, is that what it's doing, and making sure that if we are scaling these new innovations, that it is actually better than what we're looking to replace. And then finally, also, testing the recyclability of these different polymers. You know, really, in an ideal world, what you want to be able to do is recapture the value through recycling. But if it escapes the ecosystem, you want that those fibres would then break down in those different environments.

Speaker 1
Okay, right. And so I mean, How hopeful are you about this project? I know you're only at the beginning of it, but do you reckon in a couple years time once you've completed it, that the landscape for PHA polymers is going to be quite different to what it is now?

Speaker 2
Yes. And I think that what we're basically doing is building on all of the amazing work that each of these different innovators and partners have done on an individual level to really move the needle forward with these different solutions, and I think the aim is that after this project, will basically be able to then run a commercial pilot and commercial spinning trials with the pilot, the final formulation of PHA from each of those different innovators, and essentially what it's doing is like moving things at a much faster pace than they otherwise would have done if individual brands and innovators were working together.

Speaker 1
Now you mentioned And then you've got some quite big names sort of partnering with you on this. You've got PVH Corp and gore and so on. Now, I think there's a whole issue about greenwashing in the industry. But I mean, the impression that you're getting that these companies do genuinely want to make a difference, then they're not just doing this to look like they're, you know, making an effort, they actually really are interested about finding sustainable alternatives.

Speaker 2
Yeah, and the the brand partners and manufacturers that we work with, are really at the forefront of innovation and sustainability. And I think the fact that they have committed to these projects, I think, really shows that they do want to drive change. And I think that what's particularly exciting is each of them has such a different unique insight and application area. So it's great. It's not just focused on like high performance, outdoor wear, it's actually working with different brands who have different products that they're selling, and really looking at, okay, where would PHA be the best fit? And how can we scale this as fast as we can. And I think that really our fashion for good, the role that we're playing, is to do the due diligence on these different companies, and map out projects that have really concrete implementation steps and milestones to make sure that we're actually moving forward when it comes to innovation. And not just, you know, talking about the things that might be possible, really actually seeing if they are possible. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. A lot of people talk about, you know, you can talk the talk, but can you walk, the walk, and so on. So that's really interesting to hear. Now, in addition to all of this fashion for good also offers lots of free resources about particular subjects, whether it's decking it, cellulosic fibres, wastewater treatment, and so on. So can you tell me a bit more about the other resources and reports that you offer, please.

Speaker 2
So there's two aspects to a lot of the resources that you find on our website. One is, as you mentioned, these different reports, and some of the ones that we have done over the last couple of years are one that looks at financing the transition to a more sustainable fashion industry, and what some of the challenges that we face. And actually, this is where this idea of a consortium really came to life. When we released this report, at the almost a year and a half ago now to look at bringing together different stakeholders. So you have orchestrators brands, supply chain partners, innovators, and external funders and investors as well as public policy. So I think it's really about this like approach where you need all of these different skill sets to really drive forward. Yeah, the solutions in this area. So we have things that look at financing, we also have things that look at the different innovations that are available. And where are they right now. So great report that looks at innovation in the Asia region, what might be next when it comes to developments in that space? And then my personal favourite, because I helped write it was one around biomaterials. So looking at what is bio bio material? What does bio based mean? What's bio fabricated? What's a bio synthetic? And I think often these terms are bandied around quite freely without actually understanding, like, what do we mean by that? And we co authored that with bio fabricate at the back end of last year. And it's really a great piece to actually understand, like, how do these different solutions fit in? And I think, actually, the bio doesn't always mean better, you actually got to drill down into what are the feedstocks, how is it made, and what's happening at the end of use, and also some really interesting insights around like, what makes a successful collaboration. And I think often a lot is expected of innovators when it comes to developing solutions in this space. And actually, it's as much up to the brands and manufacturers to work collaboratively, to be honest, to be open to be transparent, to set realistic milestones and goals that enable the partnership to really thrive. And I think also, with a lot of these material solutions, it's going to take time, you know, you're not going to have things commercially available on the market, even in the next 18 months in some instances, because you just need to scale them the same you would with any solution. So I think it's about being realistic on the timeframes of actually bringing things to mass market, I mean, so I think that's also something that we really want to focus on. So what we actually do is once we finish projects, we actually create a one pager which we then share on our website and with other ecosystem players that essentially takes the learnings from all of these projects. to move them from scaling to implementation. So we've actually got one coming out very soon. That's around viscose traceability, and we released one a few months back that was around polybags. So I think that's also what we want to do is share our learnings to enable others to actually go out and and take those solutions and scale them faster than they might otherwise have been. I've talked a lot about the innovation platform side, I think on the experience, we also have a lot of amazing resources and events. Our current theme is all around biomaterials. It's called grow. So under the banner of grow, we have lots of amazing artefacts and products from different innovators in this space. And we also have lots of events and workshops that we're running over the coming 12 months, that dive into this topic of biomaterials, and grow. So if you can't make it to Amsterdam, you can actually do a digital tour. So definitely sign up on our website, it's amazing to very lucky to be able to walk through the building every day and see, actually see and touch some of those products that I'm always talking about on these sorts of things. So definitely recommend it.

Speaker 1
Yeah, it sounds really great. I mean, keeping on this subject of biomaterials. I mean, after doing that report, then I mean, where are we at with biomaterials? I mean, how important do you think there'll be for the fashion industry moving forward?

Speaker 2
I think they will, they already play and they will continue to play a really important role. And biomaterials covers such a breadth of different applications, you know, that also includes leather alternatives, more sustainable replacements for conventional natural fibres, or, or viscose or polyester with some of the biopolymers that I talked about earlier with PHA. And I think, but what we really want to do is make sure that we're always having a critical mindset, when we're looking at different innovations and solutions to really know that actually, it is better than what we're looking to replace. And I think that's also what we really advocate for both from a sustainability perspective, it also needs to perform well, you know, you can't put something out into the market that isn't going to perform, as well as the materials that it's looking to replace. But yeah, it's definitely the future, I think we see that increasingly, the demand is there. And and it needs to happen in order to really reduce the overall footprint.

Speaker 1
And so moving on, then, I mean, what other subjects and reports will you be tackling next? I mean, are you able to give us any insight yet.

Speaker 2
So we obviously announced this two projects in the last month or two, one that I talked about today around renewable carbon, another around sorting, so these projects will run for the next 18 months or so. I think I can't share the other ones that are coming out because still super secret squirrel till they're announced. But it should hopefully be in the coming months. And I think the focus at the moment is really actually around biomaterials through grow. So like taking a lot of the content from the report that we did with bio fabricate and exploring, like, what does that actually mean in practical implementation? And what are some of the questions that we can all ask when we're looking at new materials in this space?

Speaker 1
Okay. And what about if you had unlimited time and resources? I mean, what other information is sort of lacking that you'd love to provide, you know, information and research about?

Speaker 2
So I think that the main thing is quantitative data. So I think that a lot of the solutions, both the incumbent supply chain, and with new innovations, more information is needed around the actual quantitative data of those different solutions. So even when you look at digital solutions, which I'm super excited about, we've also got to remember that that comes with its own impact areas. And so I think what we're always saying to the innovators is be transparent about what some potential unintended consequences of your solution might be, it's unlikely that it's going to be perfect and solve all the world's problems. So it's about really being honest of what that balance is. And that overall, you know that it is better than what you're looking to replace. So if I had unlimited time and resources, I would channel it into to hard data. Although I'm not a data cruncher myself, I think I definitely see that we really need it in order to be able to be authentic about the claims that we're making as an industry. You know, if you're a consumer and you don't really know that much about the ins and outs, how do you know that some that a claim is actually backed up by real data? So I think that's a big one for me. And I think also, another interesting area is like the time to market. And from a price perspective, how we can scale these innovations. So actually, they can be used across multiple different application areas, and by multiple different stakeholders. So I think that's still to be seen as they continue to develop. And that's where investment and financing remains really important. Because actually, a lot of these solutions that require new infrastructure or new machinery to be built, they do require investments throughout supply chain to help make that happen. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think I actually first came across you because you did a talk at? Oh, gosh, it was the EMI event held a couple of months ago. And I mean, both those things were like some of the biggest outcomes from that show. I mean, the whole data thing and transparency, I mean, trying to compare what fibres like best to use for certain applications are got, I mean, the people having to work out these answers, I'm not envious of them, because it just sounds like such a huge challenge. But yeah, as you say, if you could channel that energy into that and get some really good answers that be a massive step forward. 

Speaker 2
For sure. And I think though, it's also about actually taking the first step. So I think my advice would be to brands is really working out where your biggest impact hotspots are. And then looking to find solutions for those impact hotspots. So if you're a sportswear brand, and you use a lot of polyester, because those are the products you're making, then look for solutions in polyester, or vice versa. If you you know, a leisure wear brand, and you use a lot of cotton, then look for solutions in the cotton space and really go after innovations that help you reduce your impact. And I think another area is work to develop to decouple from resource use. So can you implement rental or E commerce are these different business models that would basically enable you to keep products in circulation and use with your consumers for much longer than it might otherwise have been. And I think, often with circular business models, it's really about just getting started. So trial and error and working closely with those different partners to identify what works for you as an organisation. Nothing's going to be perfect the first go. But that's where collaboration and the strong relationships really is key across the board.

Speaker 1
Now unfortunately, we're sort of running out of time. But I mean, just finally, then, how optimistic are you about the future of the textile and apparel industry? I mean, how long do you think it might be until we start seeing these startups from say, your accelerator programme? How long would it be until they're sort of rivalling lensing or Akona, or even h&m at some of these massive players,

Speaker 2
I think the pace has exponentially picked up and increased even over the last three years that I've been working at fashion for good. And if anything, the last 18 months have shown that innovation is really a core driver for transformation, but also economic resilience. It really is an investment that takes time, but we've been presented with this rare opportunity, which we can't afford to miss. So I think actually, we've seen that investors, brands and manufacturers, even from a policy perspective, things have actually accelerated over the last 18 months to really drive forward innovation and sustainability in this space, in terms of when they might compete with the likes of lensing. I think we're already seeing products coming to market. And I think that in the next five to 10 years, a lot of the innovators that we're working with now will have solutions that are available in the products that anybody could buy.

Speaker 1
Oh, gosh, that'd be so exciting. I mean, sometimes I forget that the things I learned about doing this job that my friends when I go, you know, see them after work. They've got no idea they exist, or in 510 years, they might see them on hang tags or whatever. I just think that's really exciting. But yeah, we'll have to just wait and see, I suppose. 

Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm excited. 

Speaker 1
Well, I mean, Giorgio, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today. You've spoken brilliantly, and I'm sure everyone listening will have learnt a lot. So I mean, thank you for coming on the show and good luck with everything that you're doing it fashion for good. You sound like such a remarkable organisation.

Speaker 2
Thank you and thanks for having me.