Ep. 59: Heathcoat Fabrics: To infinity and beyond Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 59: Heathcoat Fabrics: To infinity and beyond

The WTiN Podcast is back for another series, and this time we kick off by talking to Peter Hill, director of Woven Fabrics at Heathcoat Fabrics.

Jessica Owen
Hello. My name is Jessica Owen, and I am the Deputy digital editor at WTiN, and this is the WTiN podcast. Join me and my guests every week as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry, whether it's talking to sustainable startups, quizzing experts on the latest research and development or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know this week, I am joined by Peter Hill, who is the director of woven fabrics at Heathcote fabrics, the company has created the parachute material for the perseverance rover, which recently landed on Mars. So here is Peter to talk more about it. Hello, Peter. Thank you for coming on the show today. How are you doing?

Peter Hill
Very well. Thank you.

Jessica Owen
Good. So how are you feeling about the UK's lockdown plans? 

Peter Hill
It means a lot to me. So I've been able to see my family at some point, which has been difficult because then not all in Devon, not nearby. So yeah, it'd be great to do that from a from a business point of view. Then, yeah, maybe make things a bit easier, and at some point we'll be able to go and see customers with business again, because customers want us to see them, and they want to come and visit to do that, do approvals and things. And it's been a long time, obviously, that we've been in lockdown. But yeah, I think it's just better do it steadily and safely and cautiously and not get too carried away, because the main thing is to avoid yet another lockdown. 

Jessica Owen
Exactly. Yes, we seem to be going in and out, in and out, and I think people are fed up now, aren't they? 

Peter Hill
A bit longer for it to be the last one, we should wait a bit longer, that's all I'd say.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, I'm with you there, definitely. So then you've joined me states that we can talk about a very interesting project that Heathcote has been involved with, which is the Mars 2020 perseverance rover, as they've named it. This landed safely, I think, a week, couple of weeks ago now. But before we talk about that, can I just ask you a bit more about Heathcoat fabrics then, and what you guys do exactly,

Peter Hill
we make a wide range of mainly technical fabrics used in automotive, aerospace. Protects for apparel such as firefighters material. It protects the firefighters body armor equipment. So just a wide range of technical fabrics with a small amount of special apparel fabrics, particularly a bridal net, and other two, two net, that type of thing, which is flame retardant, and ours is the only flame retardant net on the market. So even in our apparel side, we have some unique selling points, 

Jessica Owen
Okay, interesting. And I understand you're based down in Devon, then all the way, you know, on that little corner of England. How long has the company been running? And how long have you been based there? 

Peter Hill
The company's been running since 1808 John Heathcote invented the first lace making machine. He was based in Loughborough in the Midlands, but in a in about 1816 he had a lot of problems with competitors and possibly Luddites as well, smashing up his equipment. So he decided to buy a factory down in Devon, an empty factory that had previously made woolen fabric for the Napoleonic Wars, but was now out of work. So he bought that factory, and his workers moved down to Tiverton. They walked about 200 miles, all of them, and set up a community down here in two so 200 years ago, in 2016 

Jessica Owen
Gosh, I didn't know that. Is that on your website? I've definitely not read that anywhere. That's a very cool story.

Peter Hill
I thought it was on the website. But if you Google John heathco, you can see the history of the Heathcote business on there. 

Jessica Owen
Oh, right. Interesting. So then I mean, you just said there you create fabrics, even for bridal wear, but, you know, defense, even aerospace and so on. But the latest application area, I guess, is space, with this new Mars rover. And I understand that Heathcote is responsible for the huge parachute that sort of helped it to slow down and land safely. Is that right? Then, that's what you were involved in.

Peter Hill
We made the parachute fabric. So the fabric itself, which is a bespoke design, special fabric for that mission, was made by us at heat coke fabrics, and then the parachute was made by a company called airborne systems in California. So we worked with them, really closely on that project, and also with NASA themselves. But this isn't our first mission in space. We've been involved in the space industry for over 30 years. So we also supplied the fabric before the Huygens mission to Titan and the Beagle two to Mars. So our fabric is already on Titan and Mars is our second time to Mars. 

Jessica Owen
Wow. I was going to ask actually, whether this was your. First sort of foray into space, and they're actually very experienced. 

Peter Hill
Then we have other projects as well going we can't talk about all of them because of non disclosure agreements, but we we do do a lot of other business in space as well, and we have a fabric in place on the International Space Station that's used in the system to create oxygen and hydrogen from water to part of their life support system.

Jessica Owen
Okay, interesting. So let me just go back a bit then, because, I mean, we've already said your company is based down in Devon, which you know, is a relatively rural area of England. So how did you even get involved with NASA in the first place,

Peter Hill
because it's a long story. If we go back to before World War Two. At that point, we were making silk fabrics, and the first parachutes were made from silk. We set up a parachute business. We bought a parachute business that was originally in the Czech Republic. They moved out because Czech Republic was conquered by the Germans at the time. So they set up in in the UK, and they had some problems. They were, I think, bombed. They were around the London area. So they moved down to Devon and started manufacture on this site. So this, this office I'm sat in today, was part of our manufacturing of parachutes during World War Two, and until the 1960s we made parachutes as well as made the fabric. Then we the demand went down, obviously, on after World War Two, and then we just carried on making the fabric. So we were carrying on making fabrics all the way through the 60s, up until the early 2000s we did the Beagle mission and the Beagle two and the organs mission. So we were well known in the space industry for our parachute we also made a lot of special parachute fabrics for ejector seats and fighter jets to slow fighter jets down. So we were in the real specialist end of the market, not just the sports market. So then we were well known. What do we do next? When we decided 2005 needed to up our game and make some real world beating fabrics and make some real High Tech High Performance parachute COVID fabrics, we knew there was a demand coming from certain sectors such as defense and also the start of the commercial space programs it was being talked about, so it could be growth there. So we did design these fabrics. We did the development work, put everything together, and met all the people in the space industry in the states that we could, the people that make the parachutes, a couple of companies there, and just got our name out there, and we launched in 2015 our new super light range of real high performance, high strength, lightweight canopy fabrics at a show in America called the parachute Industry Association symposium, which is also run alongside the aerodynamic decelerated systems Conference, which relates to a lot of space industry projects. So we launched this new fabric, and we had some, a lot of people show interest in new fabric. As soon as they felt, they said, This is what the industries needed. This needed a fabric that there's this strength and stability and just it just felt great. And that was before that any testing was done. And we met some guys from NASA as well at this, at these meetings, and that was that sort of thing. And then in 2016 NASA contacted us and said, We need a bespoke, special fabric. We keep asking people, who can we deal with and all the roads led to heat cut fabrics. Everybody said, Heathcliff fabrics. For the people with the long track record in parachute fabric. It's a track record in space and with all these new fabrics to offer. So that's that's how it all started. It wasn't by accident.

Jessica Owen
Oh, well, that's brilliant that you've got such a great reputation. And that's how they came across, you guys. So tell me a bit more about the development of this fabric, then, what was the sort of specification. I mean, I've heard that it has to withstand quite high temperatures, and it needs to slow, you know, the rover down when it hits the atmosphere in Mars. I mean, what did this fabric need to do? 

Peter Hill
It was a pretty tight brief they came to us with, and there was nothing on the market that could do it. So the main factors were associated with what you said was the fabric has to be heat treated before it goes into space to kill the microorganisms. The problem is, for a lot of fabrics they were testing the heat treatment made the fabric strength deteriorate by up to 50% so with our fabric, we designed our fabric with heat stress in mind because of the defense work we do, really and when they tested our fabric, it only lost about one or 2% of its strength. So it was a major difference. So that was the intention that was the first stage. Like the first hurdle across next hurdle was they wanted a fabric that was two and a half times stronger than what they were normally using, but the weight. Didn't go up two and a half times because it'd be easy, because you say, I just make a lot heavier. So the late the weight limit was less than that. So it was really as light as you can get and hit the target. But on top of that, the other factor is, what you're saying is correct. You have to slow it down for a very, very high speed. One concern would be at the air permeability was very, very low because it was a very heavy fabric, it would tear because it wouldn't, it wouldn't let any air through. So there was a very tight window of permeability to achieve. So those were the three main factors that it had to have heat resistance, have the right air permeability and the right strength. So those that was a design brief, so that that took a lot, a lot longer to sort out than it does to say it.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, I can imagine. So it was back in 2016 then, so you working on this for about five or so years? Yeah? 

Peter Hill
Well, we, we started the work before that to get to the point where they would be interested in us, but the actual work then took about two years, because we've made all the fabric and developed it, 2016 2017 then they had to test it before they could launch it. So it was an extensive test program. So it was about a two year project for us to develop and make the fabric, right. 

Jessica Owen
Okay, were you able to sort of go to NASA, or did they you just have to ship off this fabric, and you didn't get to go to all the cool sites they must have over there?

Peter Hill
Oh, no, we went. We went to NASA. Yeah, definitely, that was one of the bonuses. We went to NASA on a couple of occasions. So the first occasion was right at the start of the project, they urgently wanted me to go out there and discuss it with them. So I get on the plane and fly out there to have a discussion, and I turn up their site, and I said, You sure? I can just, I can just, I can just come up, come on site and jet potion. Now this is in Pasadena, where they do development works. Yeah, no problem. We just give you clearance. You just turn up on site and in your camp. So I turned up, and they said, I said, You sure? Banging again? And they said, Yeah, let's just check, yeah, oh no, you can't come. You forgot you're, you're not, you're not an American citizen. As a British citizen, you need special clearance to come on site. So I've flown all this way. I mean, they want to have the meeting. So we had to have the meeting at Starbucks. No, just outside, yeah, just outside the Czech propulsion lab. We have a meeting to discuss parachute fabric for the space mission.

Jessica Owen
How funny. All right, so all of this started in a Starbucks in Pasadena.

Peter Hill
But then the next stage after that was they, then we had a we did some development work. They came to see us, and they approved us as a supplier. So they did a came and did a NASA came to us audited heat COVID. So we're NASA approved company, and then we go into the next level. And a team of us then went to the Jet Propulsion Lab and met with them and did a full discussion of everything that was needed with the really smart guys at the top, because they realized we were credible. And we did this. We came up with a wee designs, and they were really good to us. They showed us. We were able to see them the Mars rover on test. Probably not the actual one, but they've got a set up where it's like a lunar surface, and they're driving this buggy around and trying to check it all out and make sure if it's okay. We weren't allowed to take photos, unfortunately. So it was pretty good. And then we went to the mission room, where they control all the satellites, which is the mission control is at Czech propulsion lab in Pasadena. So they showed us all of that and the bits being built, the big rooms where everything's been built. It was brilliant. So we did that bit. Great day seeing that. And the work was good as well. And then we got to go to the NASA Ames facility, where they do the this is, that's near San Francisco, where they've got the biggest wind tunnel in the world. But unfortunately, we weren't there the same day they tested the shoot, but it was still a good venture to go there and see what was going on. Very interesting place. Yeah,

Jessica Owen
yeah, it sounds like an amazing trip. So tell me more about this fabric. Then imagine, you can't tell me too much, otherwise you'll give away all your secrets. But how is the material constructed? Is there anything particularly special about it?

Peter Hill
There is. There's a lot of things special about I can't get but we select the polymers and the chemistry we want. At the start, we have it made the way that we want to have it made, the Otis, the yarn, and then we put it together in a in, again, in a bespoke manner, exactly as we want it to be made. And all the machines are serviced and parts of change, especially for parachute fabric, but in particular for this end use, where we want to maximize the strength at the end of the processing. So that's, the first stage, and then the finishing processing has to be also bespoke, special. Everything checked on the machine before it's put on. So every step of the way it's, it's treated like it's, it's safety critical, which it is, in a way that there's no people on the bottom of it. It's a very, very important and very expensive mission. So we treat it, and we've utmost. Care at all stages, and then you end up with a problem where you put the maximize strength and extension at break and everything that you need. So, yeah, it was a, it's a very careful process, yeah.

Jessica Owen
And I also read somewhere that was it Peking old the weaving machines that you use to create the fabric. Yeah,

Peter Hill
pick an old with a the weav machine we selected for the job, yeah, well,

Jessica Owen
I think I had one of their employees on LinkedIn, and they were getting very excited about it. So were they aware their weaving machines were going to be used to make this, or was it sort of only once it landed, they were like, Oh, that's amazing. We need to shout about this. 

Peter Hill
No, they I think it kind of some kind of conversations. They knew about it, but they didn't know about until after the job was done, and they asked us, and I just gave them a straight answer. They asked, was it made on our machines? And I said, Yes, it was. It was mainly machines, and it's going well. Not everything we've done in the past for space was made on their machines, but this particular job was and they've done a good job. They've been good working with us, and that if we've ever needed any help, they've helped us out. So I thought it was only fair that we let them share some of the publicity.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, definitely. And another thing, then I either someone told me about this as a colleague, but or I'm making it up, but Is it right that there's like a hidden message or something on the rover or the parachute somewhere.

Peter Hill
Oh yeah. If you look at the parachute, you'll see the design looks a bit strange, because normally the parachutes are they're usually balanced, so they've got as much orange. It looks red, but it's international orange. It's always a balanced design, where it looks pretty balanced. And this time you'll see it looks like a splat. It's like someone's tried to do a piece of modern art, because the red and white portions are not at all equal. So straight away, when I saw that come out, I contacted the people that made the parachute and said, What's all that about? Then why? Why have you done that? And they said, Where's a special code on it? But I can't tell you what it is. So then a few days, I couldn't work it out. But a few, not few days, I think within a day, people have worked out what it was, some computer code, and it said, Damn mighty things. Was a snogging they use it Jet Propulsion Lab. And it's a quote from a longer quote, which you can get on if you look at on Google by Theodore Roosevelt. And it's about, you know, making the best of every day and not being you know, if you don't try great things, you'll never succeed in great things, but you may have some failures along the way. So damn might you think don't live in the gray or something along those lines. Anyway, I can't give the full but it's a good slogan. It's very appropriate for what they do, and I know that came up with it. It's called Ian Clark. He's one of the engineers that we worked on the design of the fabric from the start, and was in charge of the parachute part. It works for check. He was protect posting lab. So

Jessica Owen
well, I hadn't heard exactly what the message was. I wasn't sure if it was like, you know, just in case there was life out there, it was one of those cryptic messages which, you know, another species might be able to translate. But no, that's really interesting anyway. So then, I mean, tell me about the day when it actually landed. Were you having to wait with the rest of the world to know when it landed safely? Or were you getting intel from the team at NASA? And they were, they were sort of letting you know how it was going.

Peter Hill
No, it's all live, isn't it? No one knows. They don't know. We don't know. There's no advance. It's right there on the screen in front of happening live with the full pressure on so that that day, unfortunately, because, like you say, because of COVID, we couldn't get together and all watch it together, but everyone was separate in their own homes, doing, you know, watching it, we had quite a lot of communication between all the people involved. That's people working for Heath coast, and also some communication with people in the US. But actually, that day was strange, because we were all working on the new project that we're working on for NASA, or two new projects, and I was in communication with people in the states up to about 10 minutes before it landed, just talking about new stuff, and it was hardly getting a mention. So it's really bizarre. I think that people just wanted not to think about it too much until the last few minutes. And I was supremely confident all through the day, because I know we did all the right things. We did a load of testing. I know that NASA did all their testing, and I was just thinking, nothing can go wrong. Then the last 10 minutes come and my wife says, you know, it's, it's, it's on TV. Now it's gonna, you need to watch it sort of thing. I'll come down. And then the NASA guys were talking about how, Oh, if it goes wrong, we'll have learnt a lot of lessons, and we'll know exactly what went wrong, because we've got cameras everywhere, and suddenly I'm thinking, they're talking as if they think it's going to fail. It even came into my head it was going to fail into that so then, from then on, I was really nervous until it landed. And then, you know, really nervous, and there's a real sense of joy when it landed and and and sense of relief. And I know that everybody that was working it felt the same way. You know, much more there's much more emotional than I think people expected to be. Yeah, it was a really big one, I think because it was so live and there was so much attention on it. I mean, we've been involved in big things before. You know, other other space missions have. Important, but this one seems to like catch the world's imagination, which was great.

Jessica Owen
I imagine it's because we've all been living with COVID for this whole year, and it feels like there's been no good news anywhere. So maybe that sort of had something to do with it. It was finally a bit of excitement, something to look forward to.

Peter Hill
I think it was exactly that. And I spoke to several newspapers and TV stations, and they said, we really why the interest so much on this mission? And they said, Yeah, because we really need a good news story, because everyone's fed up with him, with like COVID and Brexit, and we need some good news. And yeah, and I could see all of that, and there was only that last 10 minutes, and was already going on thinking, Yeah, this good news story could turn out to be a bad news story, and then it would be a real deflation for everybody involved, but also for everybody watching. So it became like a super critical thing.

Jessica Owen
So tell me about what the feedback has been like then, because, for example, the rest of the world perhaps weren't aware of Heath coat fabrics before this. I mean, unless they've been involved or, you know, keep up to date with them, some of the other missions you've worked on. So has it helped to raise your profile? Even even more,

Peter Hill
it has raised our profile a lot. Yeah. I mean, we're known to the people that know us, and they know that we do all these technical products, but we're not out there advertising what we're doing all the time, because a lot of it is covered by non disclosure agreements. So we can't go out there and say, Oh, we've got this fantastic new defense product or this thing for some aerospace company, because they just we're not allowed to do that. So it's always got to be kept a bit quiet. So we don't so our staff never get the credit for the work they do. So it was really nice that NASA, you know, allows us to talk openly about it to a certain extent, and that everyone can get some credit for the work they do. Because, you know, this project, there's there's some people like Elena Newsom, who was the technical textiles personal it, did a lot of work on this project. And then there's other people in the organization. There's five or six people that did a lot of work in production and in development. And there's 100 people, at least, I've worked it out that must have process handled this fabric through the process, because the whole project to make it took 12 weeks production time and running 24/7 on our weaving and finishing equipment. You look at all the people on the people on the number of shifts that did it, and they had to handle it, and it's, yes, it's over 100 people would have come to contact with at some point. So it's a really big team effort.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, well, as you say, it's great that you've all got the credit for it, but that just, well, you know, all these people can add, you know, I've worked on a NASA project on their CV. I mean, I would do that anyway. Um, so one other question that I had actually about this is, I mean, so we all know about its development and how it's landed, but what happens to the parachute once it's landed? Because we can't just go and retrieve it, for example, so it does it by degrade, or is it just left there? It's

Peter Hill
going to be left there until someone said to pick it up with it. I mean, at some point people are going to go to Mars. It's just a question of when it's going to happen. There's plans to do it. So, yeah, what they do with it then, I don't know, but it will be, it will be picked up at some point in history, I'm sure in the future.

Jessica Owen
That's exciting them for the first sort of, you know, I don't know if it'll be, is it Richard Branson or Elon Musk? I think they're the names that come to mind for sort of commercial trips, isn't it? So, yeah, perhaps one of them,

Peter Hill
Elon Musk wants to be first, isn't it to more, as he's put quite a lot of emphasis on on getting to Mars. So yeah, we shall see.

Jessica Owen
Perhaps he'll retrieve it then, and we'll see how it's fed. So obviously, we've just mentioned COVID 19 A while ago, but was the bulk of development, had it been done before COVID, or did that throw some challenges your way on this project?

Peter Hill
Everything was done before COVID. So the whole production run, the whole lot was done before COVID, well before but we have been developing more space fabrics, including fabrics for NASA during the COVID crisis, and yeah, that has put a lot of inconvenience in the way it's bound to we've put in a lot of precautions. We do social distancing. We made our own mass from the start. We actually supplied mass free of charge to the local care homes at the start, and there was only PPE. And we supplied scrub fabric free of charge as well. So we did, we did our bit the start, but then and then, as time went on and the government advice changed, we made those masks available to all of our own staff, so there's that social distancing. Then it's working from home. So we've tried to work from home, where we can with a lot of technical textiles. It's really hands on. So it's difficult to do that remotely, but we've put some kind of rotors in place so that some days you can do your reports from home, and then you come in and do the hands on work on another day. But it doesn't run quite smoothly. We've got a lot better with the technology, using all the different zoom and teams and everything. Else. So we've got better at using technology, but technology won't cover everything, so it's been difficult, and then there's been a lot of supply issues as well. So you know, other companies that supply us with product have had COVID issues, and then then things don't turn up when they should, deliveries, shipping stuff out. It's not been, it's not been an easy year. Put it that way, but we've kept going, and we've kept developing new products, and generally, we haven't let customers down too badly.

Jessica Owen
That's good then. And what about these other space projects then? Are they going according to plan at the moment? 

Peter Hill
Yeah, we've just delivered the fabric or dispatched the fabric for the exomos mission. Exomos is the European space agency's mission to Mars, which should be taken off in 22 and landed in 23 now there they suffered because they couldn't do the testing in time due to COVID. It should have gone this year, or should have gone last year. It should have arrived in this window of opportunity there is now, because the missions can only happen when there's a window of opportunity, when the Earth and Mars are in the right positions. So they have to wait two years now, but COVID disrupted their plans. So

Jessica Owen
so for this mission, then, are you again making the fabric for a parachute, or is it for something slightly different? So,

Peter Hill
yeah, we're supplying the parachute fabric again. It's a bit different. It's not the same fabric. They do. They want it done in a different way. They want different air permeability, and they've got a different manufacturing idea about how they're going to do it. So it's not identical, but we've made the fabrics for that

Jessica Owen
as well. Okay, well, we'll have to keep an eye out for that one. You say it's 2022 that should be going

Peter Hill
2022 it takes off. 2023 it lands.

Jessica Owen
I see, of course, yes, it obviously doesn't. Well, it's not like a flight to, I don't know, Spain, is it? It does take a little longer,

Peter Hill
seven months. This one the Mars 2026, or seven months. About that, I think, is the travel time to Mars normally. Oh,

Jessica Owen
so actually, that's only clicked. So have you been having to wait about seven months then since the perseverance rover took off for you to finally, you know, sleep at night and know it landed. That's right. Oh, how have I missed this in my head? I've completely overlooked that fact

Peter Hill
it left in July. Gosh, yeah, right. Well,

Jessica Owen
that's it. Makes it even more impressive, actually, that it's gone all that way. You've taken that time, and everything's good and it's safe and sound.

Peter Hill
Sub zero temperatures, obviously, very, very low temperatures, minus 270, or something, when it's in transit, then when it gets it suddenly got to work and have all that stress on it, even though it's been frozen for all that time. 

Jessica Owen
Yeah, gosh. I puts it all into perspective. Definitely. Okay. Well, finally, then Peter, I mean, we haven't got much more time, but I know you've mentioned that you're working on a couple more sort of space related projects, but what else is Heathcote focusing on? 

Peter Hill
Then for 2021, and beyond, we're also working on parachute fabrics in general. So we've got some special, lightweight fabrics that are going to be used, hopefully for reserve shoots, for skydivers and paragliders. We've got some new military projects as well, going ahead, both for parachutes and protective clothing. So those are quite key for us at the moment. A lot of development work going into those. And then we're still going on with our automotive work that we've that we've done in the past, and we're looking at fabrics that go into renewable energy systems. So we make the fabric that goes on the timing boats that are in wind turbines, which transfer the power and helping the generation of electricity. And we've got some ideas that some Fauci might go into the hydrogen energy systems that are coming out hopefully in the near future. So yeah, those are some, those are some big projects at the moment. We are we have so many products to work with, unbelievable. There's so much work to be done. There's so much opportunity for us in the future. We're recruiting at the moment as well. We're recruiting for production staff. And when the question is over, we'll be looking to recruit more people, probably on the technical side and the sales side. At the moment, they'll focus on production staff, right?

Jessica Owen
Well, it sounds like you've got a lot of work to do, then a hell of a lot on your plate. But I mean, you must prefer that, though, to business running dry like it surely it has done in other areas of the industry. So that's great news. Yeah.

Peter Hill
I mean, there are some areas like our actual business for fabrics that go into aircraft, commercial aircraft, has been almost zero since the start of the crisis, but we have found enough business to fill the gaps in our production. So yeah, it's at the start. It did look really bleak, as I'm sure it looked for a lot of people, but the recovery seems to have been good. I guess we're fortunate, because we have a lot of different new products in the pipeline, so that's helped us out. Have said a lot? Yeah,

Jessica Owen
yeah. Well. I mean, Peter, it's been great to have you on the show today, but that's all we've got time for. But, yeah, thank you so much for telling me about the Mars Rover mission, and congratulations again to you in the team, and for you know, having a safe landing, that's brilliant news.

Peter Hill
Thank you for having us on it's great to talk to you.