Ep. 60: Textile Exchange explains the importance of its Biodiversity Benchmark Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 60: Textile Exchange explains the importance of its Biodiversity Benchmark

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is Liesl Truscott, director of Europe and materials strategy at Textile Exchange.

Jessica Owen
Hello. My name is Jessica Owen, and I'm the Deputy digital editor at WTiN, and this is the WTiN podcast. Join me and my guests every week as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry, whether it's talking to sustainable startups, quizzing experts on the latest research and development or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTI and podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I am joined by Liesl Truscott, who is the director of Europe and materials strategy at textile exchange. Here, Liesl talks about the organisation's recently launched biodiversity benchmark, explaining why this is such an important subject, and why the textile and apparel industry should start to integrate biodiversity strategies into their businesses.

Hello, Lisa, all lovely to talk to you today. How are you doing?

Liesl Truscott
Hi, Jessica. Very well. Thank you. Good. 

Jessica Owen
So today we're going to be talking about the textile exchanges, new biodiversity benchmark. But before we go any further, just tell me a bit more about yourself. Then what do you do as director of Europe and material strategy? 

Liesl Truscott
Ah, yes, well, that is my title, and the organization is called textile exchange, and we're a global nonprofit. We're actually headquartered in the US, but have a growing number of colleagues based in various places around the world. And yes, I'm based in the UK, which quite sadly now is not probably considered part of Europe, but I certainly still feel that what we do in sort of this, this geography, is something that I'm sort of deeply connected to through our membership. So we have, so I said, we're a nonprofit, but we do have a membership base. So we have a lovely group of brands and retailers, manufacturers and feedstock suppliers, nonprofits and consultants and others that are all sort of part of our, if you like, our ecosystem of the industry. We're probably most famous for our development of industry standards, and that was sort of where we we've really touched the industry quite, quite deeply in the work that we do. We're also pretty popular for our annual conference. So we really like the the idea of of building a community that can learn and exchange and build good market connectivity. In fact, that's one of the things that, I guess, the niche that we have, we have held in this, you know, exploding, if you like, work around sustainability and textiles and fashion, is that we we like to look at, at how to connect players or parts of the supply chain together to drive good business business models. That's fundamental to, I think, the work in sustainability, and in our work in particular, and we focus in really deeply on the raw material part of the supply chain. And as you've probably heard, and it said often, you know, the textile industry is rather fragmented. There's, there's many parts to the development from a raw material to a final product that meets your wardrobe, and and, and that sort of things. So so we do focus back at at the production of the the cotton and the animal fibers and and all the the materials that form the base of the supply chain.

Jessica Owen
And I think, I mean, you said there that you're quite well known for, like your conference and so on. And there's, I think a responsible down standard responsible wool. You've even launched a new leather impact accelerator, I think, just recently. So yes, you work in a many areas, and I'm sure some people will be able to recognize those things I've just mentioned. And so one of the organizations may many focus areas, is the corporate fiber and materials benchmark program. Do you mind telling me a bit more about this? Because I understand that the biodiversity benchmark, which we'll talk about later, is sort of an extension of this. 

Liesl Truscott
Yeah. No, that. That's a good place to start. So as as we mentioned before, connecting. Young brands and retailers in particular, and even many of the if you like, the more more downstream supply bases, the garment makers and what have you. Right back to raw materials is really challenging. So one of the ways with if you like, mobilized the industry, particularly brands and retailers to start with. But increasingly, more of that supply, that manufacturing base, is through our benchmarking program, which, if you like, creates a framework and a bit of a race to the top for companies to engage on on this sort of the sustainability of the materials that they source. So the framework really identifies the areas that companies need to focus on if they want to be sourcing responsibly and addressing some of the needs of the industry. So you need a good framework, and benchmarking provides, if you like, a common and consistent framework for companies to all kind of rally behind. And of course, every company is going to look a little different, but yeah, one of the fundamental roles of benchmarking is to kind of lay out what what good looks like, and encourage everybody to be part of that development phase. I think that's a key part of our benchmarking program is that it is business led, it is voluntary. It is about, you know, stakeholders coming together to agree what good looks like and what we need to aspire to. And then once we've developed the framework, and that is, you know, transparent and and accessible to all, then the benchmarking program involves, you know, recruiting companies to take part and be part of that, that journey, it involves a lot of what we call bench learning. So as well as the outcomes of the benchmark, which is clearly a position along this, you know, this Race to the Top, companies will get what we call a performance banding that they can then, you know, look at internally and decide where they want to focus next, and they'll have a scorecard that will show where their strengths are and where their opportunities are for improvement and all that sort of thing. But the other sort of side of the coin, of, you know, this race to the top, and this, if you like, competitive space, is the learning and the bench, as I said, bench learning, but that sort of collaborative opportunity to see what works well. And, of course, one company might have strengths in one area and another in another area and and, you know, having that, if you like, that, that platform for exchange and, and hopefully scaling and and socializing the areas that where some companies are doing really well, that can, you know, that that can create a drive through the entire industry, and that's, that's one of the goals. And, you know, people do talk about benchmarking as being, you know, competitive in many ways, but I think it's, it's really key to look at the scaling and acceleration and sort of learning opportunities that they create as well. Yeah, definitely.

Jessica Owen
And I mean, you said there that this benchmark is primarily about sort of sustainable material sourcing. So tell me more about the biodiversity benchmark. Then, how does that sort of link into all of this?

Liesl Truscott
Yeah, sure. No, that's, that's right. So that is the, if you like, the bedrock of work that we do it. It's, we say it, it helps companies manage, measure and integrate what we call a preferred fiber and materials strategy into their mainstream business operations. So the key is this preferred. And of course, you know, there's not one size fits all. There's different programs. And as you mentioned, we have a number of standards, but there's, there's other programs and initiatives that kind of make up this, this journey to preferred. So that's our starting position. And then, of course, I think the way it happened, I mean, there's a little COVID story for you, is, is we were reviewing the program, as we do each year. So this was the end of 2019, we as part of that performance improvement cycle for us, we ask stakeholders, you know, what we could do better, what they're interested in, you know, what's around the corner, that sort of thing to make sure that our work is, you know, sort of future fit or future ready and over. I think it was nearly 80% of participants either said that biodiversity was important. Important, or very important, or increasingly important. And that was the this, if you like, the big chunk of that 80% that was saying, this is something that's, it's coming up on our radar. And then, of course, 2020 happened. And it was, I'm trying to, I was trying to, sort of cast my mind back in preparation Jessica, and I do remember quite clearly the start of the very start of 2020. Was, you know, labeled as the Super year. You know, all the reviews on last year and predictions for 2020 came out from all the, you know, the the talking heads and the and the experts in the area. And it was, you know, this was the the year for climate and the year for biodiversity. And of course, we had the the Convention on Biological Diversity, the CBD having their cop 15 in Cancun, China that year. And lots of lots of indicators that we really needed to step up for both, as I said internally, for us, in terms of how members were talking, starting to talk about biodiversity, and then, more broadly, these global agendas. And then, of course, you know, we all went into lockdown with with COVID, which, if you like, was probably an even more potent message to us that, you know, something's not right with the ecology, with the environment for these sorts of, you know, zoonotic diseases to be jumping out of, you know where they were kind of bound relatively safely before within, you Know, the structures of nature to start exposing themselves and in ways that COVID 19 has so that, I think, was, was, you know, another huge indicator that we all feel on a, suppose, a personal level as well as a professional level. And then that led to, you know, being being stuck at home and connected to others that were either, you know, on leave or had, oh, trying to remember the word for the government of furlough, furloughed. Thank you. My brain, yeah, we're furloughed. And, and there was a person I knew it at Kingfisher, which is quite a big company here in the UK, done work into wood and forestry. And she's, you know, she was available to support the work that we were starting to do on biodiversity, as was Helen Crowley, who is one of the sustainable ecosystem leaders at at a company called caring. So she was on sabbatical and supporting Conservation International. So I will get to the point we came together to look at, okay, what would, what would it look like for our corporate fiber materials benchmark to develop a focus on on biodiversity and what would that need to incorporate, and, most importantly, what is the bridge from for companies that are already working really solidly on their sourcing policies and practices and taking part in the in the corporate fiber materials benchmark. What does that link to a biodiversity agenda, so that companies weren't looking at this in isolation, weren't coming at it from a place of feeling overwhelmed, but could actually see how much progress they were making, and preferred fibers and sourcing and build that bridge to what they needed to do to fully for, for a start, fully understand the dependencies and impacts on biodiversity in nature, and then to start mobilizing around what it would look like to start addressing them. So that's, that's where it all started, right? 

Jessica Owen
Yes. I mean, that is interesting, isn't it? I think a lot of people have since the pandemic started to think about nature and our relationship with it and sustainability has been on our minds, I think for the last couple of years, like more so anyway, but this year has really, I think kicked it off, or at least from what I've seen. And I mean, when you hear things like, I'm quite a fan of documentaries, and they often talk about, we're in the middle of a sixth mass extinction, and then you've got the World Economic Forum sort of naming biodiversity losses one of the main worries of our society. And it really does hammer home how important this issue is, but, I mean, how does, how does the textile and apparel industry fit into this? Because for someone who's not necessarily in this world like you, might think of palm oil or logging or cities expanding as your main drivers of biodiversity. Lost. But how does textiles sort of contribute to it?

Liesl Truscott
No, that's a really good question, and it's one that sometimes might not immediately make those connections. But of course, a lot of our fibers are, if you like, in the same category as as the food industry. You know, in fact, some, some, many of the fibers and materials that we use in the industry are, you know, sometimes referred to as by products. So if you think about leather, it's a byproduct, usually, of the meat industry, and that connects you directly into into cattle raising, right and grazing, and potential for land conversion and deforestation, say, in the Amazon region, where a lot of cattle grazing takes place. So you've got a deep connection for for leather products, and then you look at wool, and whether it's it's sheep or, you know, merino sheep, or cashmere, you know goats, Angora goats, alpaca, you know, all the the animals that we depend on for our our wool. And you know, wool type fibers, it's you've got that direct connection to to countries that are growing sheep. And then, of course, you can look at cotton and linen, which is, which is based on flax growing. And even some of what we call biosynthetics that are very young in terms of a fiber option, but they're growing from corn and sugar crops. So you know, then you're looking at, and, of course, cotton is huge, right, as a fiber, as a land use area. Cotton is, is, is super important to the industry. And then the other big one is, is man made cellulosic. So your viscose and Lyocell and and products that come from, from wood, bait, you traditionally, come from from wood, and you know, whether it's forest or plantation. And of course, rubber, rubbers in there as well, in terms of connecting to, you know, many, many footwear and that sort of thing. And then, I guess, the the other, the other big, sort of giant in the in the textile wardrobe, if you like, is synthetic. So your polyesters and nylons and acrylics and that sort of thing, which you can kind of think about in the same way that we think about plastics, right? So they're based on oil and gas industry. They're a byproduct there. So you've got the, you know, the exploitation and extraction of oil and oil and gas and those feedstocks that fuel the plastic and synthetic fiber industry. And of course, on that side, as with arguably all the other materials I mentioned, you've got the waste. And then where you've got ocean bound plastics, or you've got, you know, heaving landfills of whatever materials and dyes and chemicals and things, then you've got a biodiversity issue as well, right, in terms of impact on on nature, and, as you mentioned, the documentaries and that sort of thing. I don't think there's many I watch when I these days, when I don't cry, you know, you see the impacts of whether it's, it's waste and plastic or even even climate change. If you you know that's the, I guess, the the other side of the the coin, the climate change and and nature loss are inextricably linked in as much as if you change the climate, that's going to shift the the comfortability, if you like, of a species within its niche, and that can, that can be disastrous in in whole ecosystem collapses, as well as single species. And then, of course, if you, if you clear a lot of land, and you burn forests, you know intentionally or otherwise, you're going to change the climate. So they are so, so intertwined. And the thing that I really personally like about having a sort of a nature, biodiversity focus when we think about climate is that it's not just about the decarbonization of our energy and our materials, per se, in terms of, you know, decoupling from The use of fossil fuels, but it's potentially looking at, well, for a start, the CO benefits of, you know, nature restoration and resilience and, you know, the ecosystem stability that we need. But it's also about the connection to. The raw materials as it's sort of going back to where we first started this conversation, and where we can have the most impact as a industry, as a textile and apparel industry, it's going to be in that, that restoration and regeneration of of you know, deep, degraded ecosystems that connected to the material use that I mentioned before, that we can, we can do a lot of good. Yeah,

Jessica Owen
definitely. I mean, considering I said at the beginning of that, that the initial link between biodiversity and textiles isn't obvious. When you explain it like that, it's just so complex and it's, I can't believe that biodiversity hasn't really been talked about enough beforehand when you say it like that. So tell me about the benchmark. Then, how does this work, and what is sort of the process for a company who wants to look at biodiversity and integrate this into their strategy.

Liesl Truscott
Yes, yes, no, this is, this is exciting. And I must say, Jessica, we call it, we call it a beta version. Very, very intentionally. No, I mentioned that because it's very much work in progress. And, you know, you mentioned the complexity and and to some extent, the obvious links, but then how you really get inside the topic and, you know, own it as if you like it is, it is complex, you know, as you rightly put it. So we spent about eight months, I think, if you go back to my my COVID story, and huddling in a corner with a couple of furloughed individuals. So taking that as the starting point. You know, we obviously work very, very closely within textile exchange, but also built out a a sort of community of practice where we invited and got a lot of interest from, you know, not only on our members and some of the leading companies that have have started to make these connections and work on it, but also, you know, it was a lovely opening and door to, you know, the experts in this world. You know, the conservation internationals, the biodiversity we partnered with one of them, called the biodiversity consultancy that's based here in the UK to really could be still back and thought, oh gosh, this is, this is complex. This is something that you need to really do the right thing by. So, so we did partner with an expert, as well as conservation and international suit. And we also linked to the science based targets network. We're working very closely with a group called the fashion pact that was set up to, you know, help companies step up and and set commitments and drive the progress in in biodiversity, oceans and climate. So we're, we've sort of tapped into a lot of the experts and a lot in our industry. That's all that was kind of at the same time, if you like, starting to sort of really land on this as something that we we need to get behind as an industry. So that's been amazing. We've really, if you like, we've really not feel alone in any of this. But, of course, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, there needs to be an on ramping for for companies to think, Okay, how do I get involved in this? In this benchmark? What's my, what's my on ramp, in a way. And I mentioned before the link between the original benchmark that we've been running for a few years and this one, so about half of the companies that have, if you like, already signed up to the benchmark, sort of a sort of streaming in from already being engaged in our program and the others, it's attracting some really interesting companies from outside of our our current network. So yes, there's a there's a registration process. Is a very secure technology platform that we use called Pro bench. We inherited that, if you like, or we we built the relationship with 73 bit from who run pro bench from some earlier benchmarking I was doing with business in the community when we set up the corporate responsibility index there. So any So, yeah, so we've got a very good program for running the benchmarking and companies, once they're familiar with the benchmarking tool, I think it's great, because they have their own portal. Their scorecards are in there, their archived surveys. It really is sort of set up to support a company for its own internal. Or sort of archiving and tracking and and sort of evidence library building, if you like, within its own own portal. And then we run a number of what we've been calling drop in clinics, which has been just because we're all on Zoom these days. So set up, zoom, zoom, drop in clinics and come, you know, practitioners can come and join us, and we can have a kind of, you know, this is how it works, and this is how and just basically answering questions and in that sort of group, peer to peer learning opportunity and the framework, if you like, just very briefly, it's all on our website, but it's, it sort of follows a similar framework to our broader benchmark, where it starts with, Okay, how are you integrating this topic into your into Your organization? Have you set up, you know, capacity building opportunities and learn and learning opportunity for your your colleagues. Have you set up accountability and your C suite? And you know, what is the leadership role within your organization? Are you? Are you starting to look at setting a strategy and targets are very challenging at the moment because we're still, there's still a lot of discussion going on and what a biodiversity target should look like in terms of, say, nature positive. But obviously within the target setting, there's various ways to look at no deforestation, for example. So lots of areas are still under discussion. Hence the beta version again. But the big, I guess, the leverage point for us is taking a materials strategy and what we call a portfolio of materials that your company is using, and then being able to lay them out, if you like, on a map. And then once you start to get the geography of your sourcing bases, you can then start thinking about what you know, what, what big hot spots you might be rubbing up against, in terms of, you know, predator migratory corridors, or, you know, that sort of thing. So that's, that's really new and really interesting for us. And then, you know, and then there's, I guess, the more, if you like, it was just as important, but probably the more obvious biodiversity opportunities, around soil health around, you know, rotation of crops around, looking after waterways and, and, you know, identifying where, where wet lands need to be and, and, you know, lots of things that, even here in the UK, right, we're looking at integrating into into farming practices so that farms are much more sensitive and accommodating of this sort of need of wildlife and different species to be able to safely do what it needs to do.

Jessica Owen
Yeah. So essentially, then it's a case of setting, sort of, well, you say targets isn't quite the right word at the moment, but it's essentially looking at the company trying to be transparent, and seeing what you're doing already, and then it's just a case of setting those targets and sort of eventually implementing them and just sort of monitoring and evaluating the process, see what works, see what doesn't, and it's just a continuous learning process. I imagine

Liesl Truscott
that's absolutely right. Jessica, that's that's really perfect. It It is about, and I guess that's that's been the takeaway for me over the last eight months or so, is that people really need a place to learn and exchange and engage and at the risk of sounding, you know, unprofessional, a place to to be human in a way, and to recognize our how, how embedded we are in nature and and I say that, you know, with with such huge respect for the desk Gupta review that just came out in the UK recently that really connected our economy and our biosphere and our well being into it as sort of an economic rationale as well. And so I think you know, once again, that's just another, another indication of how much society is starting to really deeply internalize what, what we need to do from all parts of society to meet this challenge. But, but yes, you're getting back to the process of benching. Marking. Here it is about that learning journey. And I mentioned earlier connection to the science based targets network, which is really critical for us. And they've developed what, what's kind of called a it's called AR, 3t, I think it's not a very catchy name at the moment, but it's, you know, you mentioned before about the targets being under development. Well, this AR 3t is about, it's an acronym for avoid, reduce, restore and regenerate and transform the industry. And that's, if you like, kind of part of the framework, big part of the framework for where we're working with the industry, and what, how you would translate those that acronym into actions and activities and investments, right? You know that we're talking very much about how to invest and incentivize this, this new model so that those biodiversity benefits are achieved. Avoiding is obvious. I think reducing impact is really interesting. And I know on your show, Jessica, you've talked a lot about the recycling and circularity activities that are going on within the textile and apparel industry. And if you can imagine how important that side of what we do, you know, using recycled materials, alternative business models, innovative materials, to just avoid and reduce the the dependency on nature and and natural resources and sort of virgin materials, is a very key part of the biodiversity strategy as well. 

Jessica Owen
I mean, it's so interesting, isn't it really about all the different components. And I mean, one question I have is considering the complexity that we've talked about and how the benchmark sort of process works. I guess it's very easy to be overwhelmed, maybe as a company signing up to it, especially when you consider all the other sort of targets people have for CO two, emissions, energy, microfiber pollution. There's so many things to think about. So does the industry have the head space to consider biodiversity. I mean, I know you've said you've had about 80% of participants interested in this, so clearly people want to. But do you think that the industry will start to take this seriously from now on?

Liesl Truscott
Yeah, I totally hear you. There is a lot going on, and we need to. We need to address so many issues in so many ways. And what I think there's a, you know, I'll speak quite high level to start with. I think there is a shift in the way we're looking at things in in silos, and, you know, compartmentalizing things into starting to see the holistic interconnectivity of all these issues now that that in itself, is quite a lot to get our head around, and quite overwhelming, if you like. But I think you know, from that sort of shifting into sort of those systems thinking. You know, theories of of change will help us to to reduce the or to accept the complexity, for a start, to accept the complexity, but to identify the levers that are going to be the most important for, if you like, I want to say a domino effect, but, but where we can, we can hit a lot of our our targets and our, you know, our ambitions through something like, say, you know, restoration of forest, that's, that's an, or, I wanted to say regenerative agriculture, because we're, you know, we're all talking about regenerative agriculture, but to the point where I think we still really need to nail down exactly what that what that means, and how to measure it. But if you can imagine, you know, shifting, it'll take everything coming together. So it will take policies to shift, you know, perverse incentives and subsidies to, you know, that are supporting fossil based use and an agrochemical use to shift into something that's going to be incentivizing, you know, different practices and different ways of producing things, but from a from a company's perspective, to answer your your question, I think there will need to be ways to build those Yes, as I said before, to build the bridges, to open the doors to and that kind of takes me nicely back to where I. Started when we talked about you and I just now about the role of the biodiversity benchmark. It is meant to say, hey, you know you're already setting targets around preferred materials. There's some great biodiversity related criteria, not everything, but you've got a lot going on already in connecting to a strategy and a framework and a Race to the Top around your sourcing policies, and that's such a great position to start. And where do we where do we go next? What's missing? What some of those connect, connections that we need to make. And to be honest, as I, as I speak right now, I'm thinking, hey, that was my journey. I do think it's, I do think it's a journey that, you know, is so exciting and so rewarding. As individuals. I've spoken to, you know, various senior people in very big, you know, brands and retailers and have been constantly delighted with, you know, they'd say something that's very human, like, you know, I'm so excited about this. Just those sorts of words. I think Jessica will, will really help, really help us kind of acknowledge the how overwhelming it is and how desperate the need is to bend this curve on Nate, on biodiversity loss. But, you know, find us this inspiration and and then build in the building blocks to get in there. That's what I hope.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, definitely. I mean, just this whole podcast today has sort of made me excited, and I guess I've heard a lot of companies that, because of COVID, they're now sort of thinking about re strategizing and doing things differently, whether it's, you know, adopting digital technologies and so on. So it's probably a good point for companies to start considering biodiversity. Now, I know that we're sort of running out of time, but just finally, then we've spoken about why biodiversity is important. But are you able to sort of, you know, list some of the ways in which companies could sort of increase biodiversity? Is it to do with sort of regenerative agriculture, you know, livestock rotation. These are sorts of things that companies are looking at.

Liesl Truscott
Yeah, I think so. I think the the journey, in a way, is to and, you know, and some of we've made a lot of progress on this already, but because I remember five years ago come, it might have been quite radical to say, you know, I I know where my raw materials come from. Companies just didn't know that. You know, they didn't need to know it. They weren't really asked, especially, you know, fashion and and apparel companies with, as I saying, at the start, very long and often fragmented supply chains to connect back to a cotton grower or whatever was was quite you only ever did it through a chain of custody. So I guess what I'm saying is knowing your portfolio, as I say, of materials that you're using, and then I didn't starting to track where they where they come from around the globe. And if not that, at least know where you know the big cotton grain regions are, or the big grazing regions are, or forestry regions, where your man made cellulosics are coming from. And that will, that will take you to a kind of a spatial setting, that from there, you can start to think about, what are the big biodiversity hotspots? But you were right as well. You know, integrating more regenerative practices, you know, reduce, radically, reducing, or stopping the use of of artificial fertilizers and and in pesticides, such as, you know, organic agriculture is a great starting place, for example. And then looking at, you know, what as a you know, what are the, what are the ways my company, as in, you know, the way my company, for example, would want to address this, is it through the use of standards and chain of custody? Is it through different ways of investing directly with the farming industry to incentivize and reward these sorts of practices? It's and of course, where there's great risk, as in Deforestation and Land conversion, you know, really doubling down on having those policies in place and figuring out how to ensure that your supply chain isn't connected to. To deforestation. And you know, not only that, but you know peat lands and wetlands and mangrove forests and and other other areas that we really can't afford to lose. So it's, yeah, it's, it's, to some extent, it's the transparency of your supply chain, and then knowing or figuring out what best to do, either as an individual company or, you know, probably more likely as a collective of stakeholders in a particular landscape. I feel like I might be complicating things again just but I think one, one interesting point to leave on is, you know, which is probably, which hopefully helps, you know, explain this complexity of the topic is that climate is one number. It's, it's CO two. You know, CO two equivalencies as our science based targets for climate. It's, we can't do that with biodiversity. There's not one species or one, you know, one indicator that can be used as a kind of global, you know, target. So that's why there is a lot of, yeah, a lot of work going on to understand what, what a science based, what science based actions look like, and how do we all kind of move in that direction, and how do we measure it? And I suppose, just to finish it a bit more concretely than that, I think this is, this is one of the great opportunities of our biodiversity. Benchmark for the industry is that we can rally behind something and drive a framework that we can all start to measure our progress and and show real impact.

Jessica Owen
Yeah, interesting. I mean, that's a lot of great information there, just for companies to get started with, if they've not even signed up. You know, there's a lot to get thinking about. Well, I mean, unfortunately, that's all we have time for today. I mean, it's such an interesting topic. We could probably have a whole series. I mean, thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about it, because it is a relatively new subject, in a way, and so it's been great to have your thoughts on it. So thank you very much.

Liesl Truscott
Thank you, Jessica. I really enjoyed talking about it with you. Thanks so much.