Ep. 62: Dow launches fluorocarbon-free durable water repellent Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 62: Dow launches fluorocarbon-free durable water repellent

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is Shawn Mealey, technical service and development scientist at Dow.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Shawn Mealey

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen, and I'm the Deputy digital editor at WTiN. And this is the WTiN podcast. Join me and my guests every week as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I'm joined by Shawn Mealey, who is a technical service and development scientist at Dow. We talk about the company's recent fluoro carbon free durable water repellent called the Dow seal ie 8749 emotion, the importance of sustainability and performance and what we can expect from Dow in the near future.

Well, hello, Shawn, and welcome to the WTiN and podcast. Thank you for joining me today. How are you?

Speaker 2
I'm very well thank you. And thanks for having me. Good. It's good. 

Speaker 1
So we're going to be talking about one of dals latest developments, which is our fluoro carbon and fluoro alkyl. Free, durable water repellent. That's a mouthful, called downsville ie 8749. But to kick off the show, could you just first sort of introduce Dow and explain what the company does to those who aren't maybe familiar with it? 

Speaker 2
Sure. Dow is a global materials and chemicals company based in the US that's been in operation for over 120 years that we were founded in Midland, Michigan. And that's actually where I work today. We have 106 manufacturing sites in 31 countries, so very global in nature, and almost 36,000 employees. So our turnover last year was 39 billion. So I guess you know, I say all that to say Tao is a pretty big company involved in a lot of different industries and businesses. So our portfolio of plastics, industrial intermediates, coatings and silicones provides a broad range of differentiated products that are used in almost every industry, including packaging, infrastructure, mobility, consumer care. And Textiles is a market that's served by several divisions of the company. And we provide a wide range of materials including auxiliaries for dyeing, printing bases, textile finishes and foam control. So, the under that organisation is where our latest development is the Dow sell it at 749 and Ballston is being launched. 

Speaker 1
Yes, I know, Dow is such a huge company, and it's one of those were, the general public might not know of you. But if you looked at the logo, I think you definitely recognise is one of those subtle things that does sort of get into all sorts of applications, as you just said, for sure. So tell me a bit more about yourself, then what's a typical day like for you as a technical service and development scientists very cool title.

Speaker 2
Thank you. Sure. I mean, I started with the silicones, part of the company 35 years ago, and have spent most of my career in a technical service in development, which I'll abbreviate Ts and D. role since then, but have worked in many different functions and in technology areas. So you know, over that 35 years have had a pretty diverse career. To SMD scientists, you know, in my job at a high level is to connect solutions that Dow can provide with needs from the customers. So in order to be more specific, I work to connect the science of the applications that the customers in which the customers are using our product, with the science of the our products in ways that enable them to, you know, do something interesting, make a differentiated value added product on their side. So it's real, really all about that connection between the application and the science of our materials is where I work most of my time. 

Speaker 1
Okay, so is it a lot of work in the lab, white coats, that kind of thing,

Speaker 2
for sure. And to be honest, working with the customers and working in the lab are the fun parts of the job. So it's very interesting to be able to work on the science part and actually see and touch what happens myself, in addition to understanding how the customer would use a product,

Speaker 1
yeah, definitely. Okay, so as I said, I mean, we're gonna be talking about Dow's latest products today with shoe is a new, more environmentally sustainable durable repellent for textiles. And as I said it contains no fluorocarbons or no fluoro alkyl. So firstly then tell me more about these harmful chemistries. I think the terms PFCs fluorocarbons, they are sort of creeping into our vocabularies these days, people are more aware of them, I think. So why has Tao finally developed a product without these? 

Speaker 2
Well, so I mean, in the space of fluorocarbons, and perfluorocarbons PFCs. I mean, I'm not a toxicologist. So I won't get into those kinds of details. But I think that the science is pretty well settled that, especially the longer chain alkyl fluorocarbons are, have human health hazards associated with them as the coatings and materials break down over time, those pieces get into the environment and ultimately, can in you know, get into human and animal blood and systems and cause results or issues that people don't really like. So, I mean, there's more and more drive to get rid of these because they concentrate in the environment, and they concentrate in animal life. And, and to move toward more safer alternatives, both environmentally safer and health wise, safer. And, you know, there are more and more regulations and voluntary standards, driving the D selection of these fluorocarbon materials. And maybe even the biggest one now seems to be that the customers, the consumers themselves are pushing these changes as well. And, you know, so in response to that, to the all of these pressures, and changes and drivers, we've started to develop our new DWR innovations, because that's what the customers are asking for.

Speaker 1
Okay. Well, I mean, I'll ask you a bit more about sort of the demand and so on a bit later, if that's okay. But I mean, first of all, let's talk about the product itself, then. So you able to tell me about sort of the chemistry that it's based on and how you've managed to eliminate fluorocarbons and fluoro alkyl? 

Speaker 2
Sure, the chemistry of Tao. So IED 749 is based on silicon technologies that fundamentally don't include fluorocarbon, or fluoro, type materials in the production or formulation or, or any aspect of, of the product. So that part's easy. But maybe what wasn't so easy was that we've been able to take fundamental silicone technologies and combine them in a new way that would provide the kind of advanced performance that's being required these days of a durable water repellent finish.

Speaker 1
Okay, right. So the performance you're talking about, then this is primarily for water repellents. From what I understand the, when you go into a shop, a lot of these waterproof jackets, for example, they're, they're sort of designed for, like monsoon season. And actually, that's probably not even necessary in most climates. So, I mean, have you had to match those existing performances? Or can you get away with it a little bit?

Speaker 2
Well, certainly, if you look across all the kinds of garments that need some degree of water repellency, there's a very wide range of requirements. So you're right, there's some of those very high performing outer garments, you know, winter jackets, or high performance rain jackets that need outstanding performance. And those typically include not only the outer water repellent, which our product would be providing that outside water repellency, but they often also include other layers inside that construction that make them waterproof. So there's a little bit of a distinction there and a difference. So our product is aiming at the outer part of the water repellency. But then you have other garments, athletic wear, sportswear that maybe isn't necessarily intended for wearing out in heavy downpour or monsoon, but is something that the customer wants to have be faster drying, or less apt to pick up water in the first place. So you know, some amount of water repellency is useful and beneficial there. But it doesn't need to be the peak performance of you know, the the highest performing materials that are out there.

Speaker 1
And so was it quite a challenge then to sort of get the same performance from from a chemistry such as this? 

Speaker 2
Oh, for sure. I mean, we, I guess that's part of the breakthrough of the Deso at 749 is that we were able to identify you New types of silicone materials that would help to push the performance to those higher levels and provide the long term durability that is typically required in these garments at the same time, so it was, you know, as a matter of, you know, you couldn't use just any old silicone even though they tend to be water repellent, inherently. But it was advancing that type of silicone material in the formulation that was built from it in order to push it to those higher level capabilities.

Speaker 1
Okay, I see. And so can I ask why you decided to look at Silicon chemistry, I mean, for example, I've heard of other companies recently, such as, there's the Rudolph group, and another company called Deep TSG, finishing, and they're sort of shouting about plant based solutions. So how come you've decided to go in this direction? 

Speaker 2
For sure, the plant based solutions are an alternative that are out there. But um, we feel that while silicones is a fun foundational technology in in Dow, so I guess that's part of the answer. But the other part is silicones, do have fundamental water repellency performance that's useful. And they tend to be very durable, environmentally durable. And now we've been able to make products that are washing durable. And we feel that these provide alternatives that have maybe a different set of attributes than the plant based solutions, while still providing a safe, sustainable, durable water repellent finish. 

Speaker 1
And so can I ask what happens at the end of life, then we're talking about sustainability. So there's nothing that's really going to harm the environment, nothing that's going to accumulate in our body. So we do know, it's completely safe, right?

Speaker 2
I mean, and the other part of it too, is these water repellent finishes comprise just a very small percentage of a final garment, or textile material. So you're providing a benefit with a very small amount of material that in itself is benign downstream in the environment and to people and animals.

Speaker 1
And so is it applied any differently to the end product or is the only thing that's different between this and say, previous chemistries that you used is that it's just safer.

Speaker 2
So it's, yeah, it one of the benefits of this type of material being an emulsion form, it's very easy to use it in the existing application methods, the existing processes that are that are commonly used to finish textiles. So this material would be put on at the very end of the role processing of a fabric. After dyeing after other processes, this product would then be applied, it doesn't take hazardous chemicals to do it. It's a very simple padding process, a heat cure to fix it to the fabric, and then it's ready to go downstream and be made into garments. So it it fits into the the supply chain very neatly. 

Speaker 1
I guess that must have been quite a big requirement, because obviously it would put companies off if it was gonna cause much disruption to what they use DD for sure.

Speaker 2
I mean, that, in my own long experience in working in industry, and with a wide range of customers, if you can provide a solution that fits seamlessly into what they already do, you have a much better chance of success.

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. Okay, and what are the other benefits of this product? Then? Are there any other sort of pros to it, aside from sustainability? Well,

Speaker 2
certainly, I mean, our focus is really on the performance side of it. So it's a sustainable solution that provides excellent water repellency, that's washing durable, but it also enables fabric to have a softer feel than many of the alternatives. That's again, because it's based on silicone. But it also doesn't leave marks on the fabric, some coatings can do that, as well as it enables no seam slippage. So your clothing doesn't come apart at the seams, not a very good thing. And it also doesn't affect the appearance of the fabric. So by using this finish, you can make garments that look like you intend them to do and aren't affected by the water repellent finish. Right?

Speaker 1
And so were these just pleasant surprises when you were testing it or did you set out to try and you know, find solutions to some of these problems?

Speaker 2
Maybe pleasant surprises isn't necessarily the right term may be more of an expectation. But we did verify that our product and we did modify the formulation of our product in order to provide an overall good balance of property. So, you know, again, in addition to the water repellency which is fundamental to This, we wanted to make sure that it also provided these other attributes that the customers may or may not consider important in their application. So, you know, I guess it was a little bit of both where we understood what the formulations could do, and then improve them to address some of these other properties. Okay,

Speaker 1
and so how long has it taken Dow and your team to develop this product, then? I mean, when did you start considering trying to find a solution here?

Speaker 2
Well, the interesting thing is, you know, the world of water repellents and water repellent silicone materials goes back to the very early days of Dow's involvement in silicone. So even back to the 50s, we were supplying materials that were very basic water repellents for a variety of surfaces, including textiles. But with this current product with the Dow sell it at 749. We actually started working on this maybe four or five years ago, and the finalisation of the development really accelerated in the last two years as the market has continued to move toward fluorocarbon. free alternatives, and what better and different alternatives.

Speaker 1
So did it start as sort of an interesting project, just something for you to explore? And then with this consumer demand, it was like, oh, no, actually, we really need to get going here moving a bit quicker,

Speaker 2
probably it was more, we had some basic technology and technology understanding in place already. And then when the customer drivers came in, and we started to get more urgent request for something new and better, then we're able to connect those needs and targets from those needs with what we could do. And that's what drove the development of the of the technology behind this product. 

Speaker 1
Okay, I see interesting. And so were there many challenges that you had to overcome? Because, I mean, I understand that you've said that Dow has like a history of working with silicones, and so on. But I understand that finding alternatives to fluorocarbon chemistry is quite a challenge. So was there anything that you had to overcome at all?

Speaker 2
Well, to be to be sure that fluorocarbon technology is provides excellent performance and pretty broad performance, right. So the targets are, are demanding, but probably the most challenging part of this has been the combination of good initial water repellency, and good durable water repellency. So in the past, we were able to make products that would work well for initially, and maybe for one or two washes, but then would not be acceptable after that. And we could provide technology that would be more durable, but was not at that performance level that was needed. So in this development, it's really been putting those two together from a technology standpoint, and, you know, having that be a product that is acceptable, and all the other ways that customers require water based sustainable provides some of these other attributes that I mentioned. 

Speaker 1
Yes. I mean, from what I've heard, although sustainability is incredibly important, it's not something consumed, it's not first on the agenda of consume is, is it's, it's more of a nice to have, I guess. So you do have to make sure that performance and the quality of everything else is up to standard, right.

Speaker 2
And to be honest, that's pretty common across all kinds of consumer applications. It's not usually the first thing they think about, but it's on the list of considerations when they make a decision.

Speaker 1
So down launched Dow sell, ie eight 749, in February since and not long ago. So what has the feedback been like, so far? Are people quite impressed with it? 

Speaker 2
Well, I mean, considering that we just did the webinar launch last week. It's not been very long, but even in that amount of time, where we've had quite a lot of inquiries and interest in getting samples of the material and evaluating how it may perform in the different customers applications. So we're very encouraged with what we've seen so far. And what we've heard so far, and we expect that we will likely see more of those results of these evaluations in the coming months. 

Speaker 1
And I even understand that the technology behind this product was recognised by an r&d 100 award. Is that correct?

Speaker 2
Yes, it is. It's actually the technology that's behind ie 8749 Not our product itself that was developed in a collaboration between Dow and Nika chemical and the product and r&d. 100 award was actually given to the product that make a chemical to though, based on the same technology set,

Speaker 1
I say, but I mean, that's still an achievement in itself. That's quite exciting for sure.

Speaker 2
I mean, our teams are definitely excited and happy to be honoured for this, this work. 

Speaker 1
So in the press release that was announced recently about this product, it called it a new generation of durable water repellent finishes. So can I assume that this means that Dow will be continuing to develop these PFC free solutions in the future,

Speaker 2
certainly, our intent would be to continue to pursue improved products in this space. So continuing to meet the evolving needs of the textiles market, and underneath all of that, in these efforts will seek to make materials that meet or exceed the markets drive towards safer, more sustainable and effective finishes.

Speaker 1
Yes, I mean, I am assuming that you said the consumer demand for this is quite high. But is it only going to keep on increasing? 

Speaker 2
Oh, for sure. I think there are some targets to eliminate fluorocarbons at some point in the future, although that varies quite a lot around the world. But with that, then there'll be greater demand for the alternatives. And and for those alternatives to improve and performance.

Speaker 1
I mean, yeah, as you just said, there are still very few regulations concerning these chemicals. And I think it's only the EU that is perhaps taking some action so far, I think a couple of years ago, it was something they had some sort of regulation come in. And even companies like gore tex, for example, is sort of a pledge to eliminate these chemicals. So does Dow have any similar goals at all, even though the regulations aren't forcing you,

Speaker 2
GAO has a very strong set of sustainability goals, to bring safer materials to the market across all of our markets and businesses. So our sustainability goals for 2025 are actually can be found at dow.com/sustainability. So you go there, you can see the lineup of of our specific goals for 2025 and beyond. But maybe the most relevant ones for this discussion today are safe materials for a sustainable planet, and delivering breakthrough innovations. So I guess as an example, I'll mention another product that our part of the company has launched last year. And that's our base screen printing ink binder called downsville. Print Oh 41. And what's different about it is it enables replacement of other inks, such as those made from PVC, with something that's more environmentally friendly. But still, as we talked about earlier, the customers can still use their same equipment, their same screen printing processes to apply it. So, you know, we want to take steps along the way to address those goals.

Speaker 1
And so you just said there that these goals are until 2025, I think, do you? Are you on track? So far? Do you think? 

Speaker 2
Definitely, I've seen them evolve, even in the last few years, there's still goals for 2025. But as we've been reaching some of those, in the meantime, we've added to them. And I guess I look at it as our goals for 2025 and beyond. Because the reality is, you know, we can't just stop there, we need to be looking farther into the future, as you know, you hear most companies discussing.

Speaker 1
So can I assume then that if Dow has its own targets, that the company in yourself believes that companies should take the responsibility to eliminate harmful chemicals to be sustainable in general, even if it isn't in law?

Speaker 2
Right. I mean, I would take that to kind of make that obvious, but our goals of out, you know, another one is valuing nature. And like I said, the sustainable are safe materials for sustainable planet. I mean, those are good for society and environment. And they are good for business, right. So you know, we're collaborating with a lot of diverse stakeholders around the world to to innovate new, new materials that are in line with those goals. And by doing that, you know, it just makes it so that the company has a good foundation to continue moving forward and be continued to be successful in the future.

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. So I'm assuming that companies would love to offer completely sustainable products, but obviously, that's not possible for a number of reasons. So in your opinion, what do you think is holding back companies and the wider textile and apparel industry from being able to be more sustainable,

Speaker 2
more probably two of the most important issues in companies being able to move forward are coming up with equally perform ring are better performing alternatives, as well as money, but probably another one would be time. So I guess that makes it three things. But to me, there's been a very positive response in the global textile industry to our recent innovations, including the Dow sell it at 749 emulsion, but other products as well, that I think really show that the industry is has a strong desire to move toward more sustainable alternatives. But I guess in that, you know, any broad based change in an industry, the size of the textiles industry, is going to require substantial investment, not only in that technology, and understanding what the technology can do and making it better, but also in investing in manufacturing processes and equipment, in people that understand the technology and can run it. And as well as the marketing information that is provided to consumers, to help them accept the new alternatives. And all of this takes time. But we see things that are definitely moving toward more sustainable solutions. And Tao we're confident that the textiles the industry will use more and more sustainable materials and processes in the future.

Speaker 1
Yeah, that's an interesting point about marketing. Because obviously, us talking today we're involved in the industry. So we know about these things, but to the general public, they might not be aware. So yeah, that's a really interesting points. So So finally, then before we have to wrap up today's show, are you able to tell me about anything else that Dow is working on in this area, or whether perhaps you have a wish list of textile solutions that you would like to develop one day? Well,

Speaker 2
of course, we continuously listen to the market and to understand the needs and expectations of our customers and of their customers and ultimately, of the consumers, and then see how our technologies and solutions can meet those needs. But maybe to be a little bit more specific over the last several years, Dow has launched several innovations aimed at the textiles industry. So the topic today the Dow sell it at 749 emulsion as durable water repellent is one of them, and the Dow still print Oh 41 textile printing a binder is another that I mentioned earlier, you can also mention a product called Eco fast pure, which helps to improve cotton dyeing such that brighter shades are possible while using less water. So focused at cotton applications. And then a product called Dow SIL a p 8041. softener has been recently developed to address some of those evolving requirements of reach and in the EU that is driving to minimise the levels of cyclic siloxanes and silicones. So that's important to us. And Tao is working to continue to develop products in that space. And that product is going to be formally launched somewhere sometime in the next several months. But we also have another a number of other textile technologies under development right now. And I'm really hopeful that we'll be in a position to announce additional products as the year progresses.

Speaker 1
Yeah, that sounds great. Sounds like you've got a lot on your plate at least. For sure. Okay, well, I mean, surely I'm a fortunately, that's sort of all we've got time for today. But it's been lovely to have you on this show. So thank you for your time and for telling me all about this new sustainable DWR it's been really interesting. 

Speaker 2
It's been my pleasure, Jessica.