Ep. 69: Huue uses biotechnology to create ‘a rainbow of sustainable colour’ Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 69: Huue uses biotechnology to create ‘a rainbow of sustainable colour’

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is Michelle Zhu, CEO and co-founder of Huue.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Michelle Zhu

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owens, and I am the Deputy digital editor at WTiN. And this is the WTiN podcast. Join me and my guests every week as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I am joined by Michelle Xu, the CEO and co founder of Hue, Michelle talks about how the company uses synthetic biology to create a rainbow of sustainable colour, how this drop in solution is highly scalable, and how there are so many other ways in which bioengineering could be incorporated into the textile industry sustainable future. Hello, Michelle, and welcome to the WTiN podcast, it's so great to have you on the show today. So how are you how is life in San Francisco?

Speaker 2
It is foggy and cold here. So I apologise if you have to put up with my heater in the background. But overall to in doing well or I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1
Good. Good. I can't imagine I mean, I've never been to San Francisco but I understand that California is supposed to be sunny and warm and the opposite of the UK. So

Speaker 2
just be the there are many microclimates, and the there Yeah, the San Francisco weather is very unique to drive a little bit out, and it really is sunny and beautiful. But as, as a Southern California born and raised girl, I have to say, even though I've been living in the Bay area for a long time, I still am not fully used to it. I mean, makes fun of me all the time for being a big wimp and basically wearing my winter coats all year long.

Speaker 1
Right? Well, you would hate the UK, then. I mean, it's May here nearly June and we got snow the other night, which was a bit random even for us. So yeah, don't come here if you like the warm. So I mean, I've asked you here today so that we can talk about your company called hue. I think I'm pronouncing that right. It's H W E Q. And so, you guys basically specialise in using biotechnology to create sustainable dyes in particularly Indigo, I think. So, to start with, do you mind just sort of telling me a bit about the environmental problem associated with dye such as Indigo, I mean, how big is the problem of course,

Speaker 2
I mean, it is huge and maybe helpful to kind of think about why by backing up a little bit and, and you can even kind of take a second to look around you and process the fact that colour is in everything right not just in our clothes or our food or that you know, but the paint in our walls everywhere. chemical dyes are literally infused into many of the products that we use and consume every single day. And while those colours used to come from plants and animals, dyes today are mainly made from petroleum in processes that that in products that can be very toxic to people and the planet. So, you know a couple you know, quick stats 20% of global water pollution today is caused by textile and fabric dyeing. Dyeing is known to be among, if not the most environmentally damaging part of the fashion supply chain. There are tonnes of toxic chemicals that are required for both their production and their application and, you know, often containing harmful trace materials like heavy metals, potential carcinogens. But I'll just sort of pause and scare you there and just say I think the good news is there is this emerging field of bioengineering, which is what my co founder Tammy did her PhD in and what many of our team members specialise in, in this field is really advanced to this point where we believe we are now able to better partner with nature to bring more sustainable sources of colour to the industries that are influencing the health and future of the planet. Right.

Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah, I think I also saw some other stats on your website that said like, every kilogramme of indigo produces over 100 kilogrammes of petroleum. And there's like cyanide and formaldehyde and all these nasty things, which is quite well, I mean, I wasn't aware of it until I started working in this industry. But you mentioned there that your co founder, her PhD is in biotechnology. So, how did the company come about, then? I mean, how did you suddenly become aware of the environmental problem with dyes? I mean, what's the background? And? And what was that final straw that made you guys want to start? 

Speaker 2
Whew, yeah, well, I want to back up a little bit. And just from the kind of, you know, problem with Indigo, I do like to talk about the problem with dice as a whole, because just, you know, the problem is massive. But with some of the statistics, I did also just want to, you know, share, much like in the space of, you know, a lot of days, it's, it's, you know, over 100 units of petroleum that are needed to produce, you know, one amount of, you know, one unit of indigo, so, it's, I think, maybe flipped from, from the order that, that you were just mentioning, but but but absolutely right, you know, just heavily reliant on fossil fuels, and, and, and other toxic chemistry, in order to in order to produce the material, and a lot of people really don't realise that that's going into, you know, our favourite pair of jeans. But kind of back to answering your question, my background is a little bit winding, I would say. So, you know, primarily, you know, had a career in business, I was a management consultant doing very traditional strategy and operations type work. But the sort of personal connection is that my, my family background is actually in the fashion industry. So we are immigrants from China, my parents built their own apparel company, out of LA, where we grew up when, when we immigrated here. And I think, because of that, I got a lot of first hand exposure to many of the sort of manufacturing sustainability challenges, just by virtue of, you know, being in the family growing up and travelling with them. And really, was, honestly a little bit turned off by the fashion industry, and it and so kind of pursued my own independent sort of path. And it wasn't until two years ago, at the beginning of 2019, when my then friend and our co founder, Tammy was getting ready to graduate had been working on this biotechnology during her PhD as her kind of grad school thesis project over, you know, five, six years, and was seeing just incredible promise for both kind of impact and kind of commercial interest in the space and, and realise that this was something that, you know, she wanted to build a needed a business co founder to sort of helped her do it. And so we really started talking in depth about what it would look like to to spin out a company based on this technology. And that's, that's exactly what what he was doing.

Speaker 1
And how great is it that you get to share it with a friend as well, that must make it so much more enjoyable? 

Speaker 2
It is. Absolutely, and I think the best part of it is we get to know each other even better, and in a different kind of perspective to you by being by being co founders. But yeah, Tammy is just an absolutely amazing, dedicated, co founder with with a lot of heart and I'm really grateful to get to work with her.

Speaker 1
So I mean, let's talk about you and your technology then I mean, when you say bio engineering, what does that mean exactly? And how are you using that to come up with the a sustainable solution for dice?

Speaker 2
Yes. So, right, we like to say Hugh is a synthetic biology company developing bio based dye technology to create a rainbow of sustainable colour. And what that really means is, we are basically experts at analysing how colour compounds occur in nature. So we study the enzymatic kind of processes that are responsible for the colour in the plants and animals around us. And then we take what we learned we and we programme are microbes to mirror that process. And because microbes are kind of nature's most powerful manufacturers, they basically can then consume a carbon source like sugar, and grow them to enzymatically produce the die as they grow. And the beauty of this technology is really that it is uncompromising. So it allows us to have a sustainable solution made from renewable sources. But it's also highly scalable, and easily drops into the existing manufacturing processes. So it's sort of a full package solution.

Speaker 1
So just so I can get this straight, because I am not a scientist. So what you're doing is there any, I'm trying to think of a way to simplify this is it so flamingos for example, what they eat determines the colour of their feathers, do what these microbes eat, determine the colour they produce, or if I got that completely wrong,

Speaker 2
it's it right, it's not exactly based on what they eat, and what we feed them, it's, you know, they, they grow on they, they like to consume what they like to consume. But it's more so it's actually in their genetic code. And so that's what we mean by bioengineering. It's, it's the, it's the enzyme sequences that are telling them, you know, what kinds of products to kind of secrete, and that is sort of the, the secret sauce behind how we get a microbe to produce different kinds of colours. So So So, you know, the, the way it works is, you know, thinking about nature, as you know, the original artists, you know, whether it be kind of, I think flamingos are an interesting example, you know, you can also think about beet red, or, of course, indigo blue, all of that is going to be created by enzymes within these, within these plants and animals that are telling them how to create the colour or giving them the kind of Instructions for creating the colour. And then we basically replicate that into microbes. And we use bioengineering to essentially teach the microbes to to replicate that process. 

Speaker 1
Right. Okay, that makes a lot more sense, actually. And so how do you go about harvesting? Whatever they produce into a colour into a dye?

Speaker 2
Yeah, well, we're, we're harnessing the power of bio manufacturing is what we call it to, to do that. And so essentially, you know, once we've taught the microbes how to make the dye, which is kind of the process we were just talking about, we then can grow them in a process that is very similar to kind of brewing beer. So we basically grow them with sugar and some room temperature conditions where they can really thrive nicely. And then, as they multiply they in these kind of giant tanks, that's they, they will secrete the die. And so this means that all you have to do from a scalability perspective is build a large enough tank and optimise that process to fit the amount of dye you want to produce. And then come up with a way to isolate the dye afterwards.

Speaker 1
Right. Okay. Well, that was gonna be one of my questions, actually. I mean, How scalable is it? Because when you're talking about microbes, that is something so tiny, that to think of, you know, the way petroleum industry is creates dice, traditionally, you just, I don't know, it's quite hard to comprehend. So you're saying it's completely scalable? And is it any more expensive either?

Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely scalable? You know, I think my principle is, the larger the tank, the more die you produce. And so you sort of go through a kind of supply chain optimization of well, what is the scale you need to support the industry that is out there. And, and when I say that, can microbes are powerful growing machines? You know, we learned in middle school biology about how quickly these these microbes can can multiply. And and I think that's, that's exactly the principle that we're kind of taking advantage of here in the bio manufacturing process. from a price perspective, I'll say, you know, we're only a two year old startup and so because we're still at a small scale We currently design pilots and price points collaboratively and individually with our brand partners, but we do see strong opportunity to be plant based dye prices and even meet petrochemical dye prices as we grow. So I think that's again, part of the promise of kind of the, the the promise of of the technology.

Speaker 1
Do you know what that is so exciting, actually, because I attended bio based materials event recently. And everyone talks about the two main barriers being scale and cost. And it sounds like you've overcome both of those. And it just sounds like a sustainable startup that's genuinely going somewhere, which is really refreshing.

Speaker 2
I'll say, I think that I think a big thing is, you know, it's just a matter of time, I think it you know, I have also been to sort of my share of of biotechnology kind of conferences and biomaterial conferences and, and I think oftentimes, the kind of warning is you just have to make sure that you've taken your time done your studies in order to sort of like understand when the solution became come sustainable, or become scalable, and how, and similarly, you know, have you done the studies understand, and project out how your solution would be able to kind of match the price targets that you want to hit? And so that that is all the legwork that we do upfront? And, and then we kind of, you know, those are the projects that our technical team, you know, develops in, you know, as part of our company building roadmap.

Speaker 1
And so we've talked about then, like the logistics of it all, but what about the performance side? I mean, are there colours? Are they can you wash them the same? But what's the colorfastness? Like? I mean, when it comes to Indigo, for example, jeans are often finished, that they look worn out, for example, can it meet all of those different performance criteria? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, I think this is the part that I find most exciting, is just looking at the performance of our lab scale trials, they have honestly been exceptional. We measure in our lab as much as we can, so including colour values, shade depth, colour fastness, and the like. And basically, on every metric we are holding our own against synthetic dyes, and beading plant based dye performance. And that's how we really know we're onto something and can validate that that uncompromising value proposition that I was mentioning.

Speaker 1
Right? Okay, interesting. And so if a company wanted to use your dice, then how would it work in their supply chain? Would they would you sell the dice to the dye factory or the mill or wherever it's going? Or how would that work?

Speaker 2
So our solution is a drop in to the existing supply chain. This is really important to us, when we were gathering kind of initial product requirements, we learned and understood just how difficult it can be to implement, you know, capital investments and process changes. And we don't, we don't want mills to have to invest in any additional equipment or workforce in order to use or store our solution. And so the beauty of our process, and I think the reason that it is something that can be widely adopted is that is that it can be that that drop in into mills in the supply chain. And so in terms of the way that our model works, we basically collaborate with both brands who are going to be ultimately the ones that are, you know, responsible and accountable for communicating the message. And they're kind of mill partners, and sort of jointly map out the and design the projects for implementing our solution.

Speaker 1
I see you mentioned there about collaborating with brands. I mean, have you worked with many brands today?

Speaker 2
Yeah, well, I know there's so much opportunity out there but but yes, we do feel fortunate to be working in stealth with denim brands that that people know and love. And so I'll just say stay tuned for cooler blue jeans that are powered by you.

Speaker 1
Right okay. And so from working with these guys And then, I mean, what do they need to appreciate from working with a startup? 

Speaker 2
I would say, I think there is a lot of education in this space, like you said that that that could be done. So, so certainly, you know, a lot of that work that, that that needs to be done upfront around kind of understanding, validating, how did they think, how does this work? What is the impact that can be had? But but but also, I guess, you know, maybe, on the other side of it, realising that after you validated, that this is the project, this is a viable project that you want to take on my other kind of, maybe advice for brands or, or, you know, thinking around how brands can be helpful is actually just working collaboratively in the process. Because there are so many things that will come up inevitably, as part of working with, you know, emerging technology, and, you know, novel startups and, and so I think the the best ways that the brands can be helpful is not just sort of diving into understand, but but also really having the kind of patience and understanding to work hand in hand and go through the journey, the full ups and downs that it takes to launch a real significant innovation. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, well, I mean, what you've just said, there is something that I've heard quite a lot of recently, they're, you know, big brands, they've got the resources, and they've got the brand awareness among consumers to really drive these technologies such as whew, so yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And I mean, if you were to flip that around, what advice have you got for other startups on how to work with these brands? I mean, are there things like challenges that have come up that you didn't foresee, and perhaps, you know, want to give anyone else out there a bit of a heads up, or what I

Speaker 2
think the biggest one is really, once you have found a, you know, partners that you are excited about? The most important thing is probably just remembering that you're working with humans, and it just to really work again, hand in hand and collaboratively offer that partnership. And, and and I think most of all, offer the real transparency behind how to do things so that brands can take advantage of the resources that and experience that they have to help bring the innovation to life. Right.

Speaker 1
And that actually brings me on to another question that I have, because I understand that you're working while you're on this use fashion for good accelerator programme. And that you've also got I think it's Dr. breslauer from both threads, which is a really successful, sort of alternative materials company is an advisor. So I mean, how encouraging is that for you then? And how helpful is it to have people like that on board? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, well, we feel very honoured to be backed by so many supportive and experienced investors, advisors and collaborators. Honestly, I would say, for us, it's it's not about chasing recognition or awards. But it's what what makes it encouraging is that it's, it's about getting the right kind of help, reinforcing the importance of our work. And then and then I think most importantly, what helps us get through, you know, the most challenging parts of the day to day is really just helping us believe in ourselves as, frankly, you know, non traditional archetypes of founders, and that's really powerful too. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. So going back then to you working with brands, I know, you probably don't want to say any names right now. But will the your company hue be on the labels at all? I mean, will consumers have any idea that you guys have helped to create this sustainable product? 

Speaker 2
Yeah. So again, you know, I won't share too much about our plans, but I will say, I think our brand absolutely should be and needs to be on labels because I think consumers just as a as a whole, consumers deserve transit. currency around what is going into their products, in the same way that we have labels for, you know, the food that we eat. The clothes that we put on our bodies every day needs to have that information so that those who want to access it can and can better understand what it is that their brands are doing to contribute to a better future.

Speaker 1
Well, I'm glad that's your answer, because that's my opinion anyway. I mean, I can't believe that, you know, all, I mean, it's right that brands have the recognition, because they are the ones sort of going through that product development, and I guess it's their ideas, but even down to sort of factories, or, you know, yarns, for example, there's like you co nail and reprieve doing the recycled sort of alternatives. And, yeah, it's so important that all these different players who are doing Justin as an important job get recognised, right?

Speaker 2
Well, so in my opinion, is that, you know, we can't frame it as an either or it's not like because brands highlight others in their supply chain that help them kind of create a product that it makes the brand diminished. In fact, I think the future is that brands need to view it as a supporter of bolstering of their own brand is if they can be transparent, and be proud of the partners that they work with bring their products to the market, I think it only creates even more of a halo effect around the brands. And I think there are a number of, you know, brands and emerging kind of players in the market today that are doing this really well.

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. I think h&m is the one that comes to mind. They seem to be supporting a lot of people like I think it's we are spin dye and a couple other sort of, or gosh, I can't remember them now. But other companies in that sort of sustainability sector. So yeah, I mean, I hopefully others will sort of follow suit. So from what I understand indigo dye is the company's first mission. But you mentioned at the start of this podcast about creating a rainbow of colours. So are you able to sort of divulge any of the plans that you've got that you're hoping to explore in future?

Speaker 2
So unfortunately, we have not publicly announced what is in our pipeline. But again, just suffice it to say we have big plans in the future of colour.

Speaker 1
Okay, right. So we're going beyond genes, then. Can I assume that?

Speaker 2
I think that's a pretty safe bet. Yeah.

Speaker 1
Okay. All right. Well, that'll, that'll keep me going. Okay. And I also wanted to ask you about your thoughts on bioengineering in textiles in general because I understand there's a company I think in Japan called Spider that is working with like fermentation and and not not too dissimilar. I don't think to what you guys are doing, but to create the actual fibre. So I mean, what are the possibilities regarding bioengineering? Do you think it's, you know, going to be quite a big part of the textile industries future?

Speaker 2
In short, yes, I think there are just so many ways that bioengineering can be and will be incorporated into the future of the Textile and Fashion Industry and, and even more broadly, in the world, just to make sure that we hit our climate goals. And I do think that sometimes talking to just one company can, can make us forget or obfuscate the fact that this is a revolution that is fundamentally changing the way we make things. So it's, it's huge. And a lot of people in, in our industry can point to the fact that I think, you know, honestly, petroleum based innovation is starting to reach a plateau, it created a lot of great things for us that the rate of the innovation is slowing down. Whereas I think this is the time for the bio revolution. And we're really just at the beginning of harnessing the power of, of what it means to kind of borrow from nature. And so I'm just really excited about the possibility in this space to for example, do things like creating carbon negative materials or unlocking properties that we literally could never achieve before and so I think, yeah, pointing to a company like fibre that is doing you know, fibres or bolt threads that is doing leather. And, you know, the possibilities are, are are are endless and and I think it's it's beyond just sort of applications in, you know the kind of material but also in the packaging and in the wastewater treatment and, and so many different ways in which we can just harness that power.

Speaker 1
So it sounds like I mean, if anyone's listening to this, who happens to be a student or someone quite young looking for that next sort of way forward? If you've got a knack of science getting into this industry, it sounds like it will be very rewarding and lots of possibilities.

Speaker 2
Absolutely. I and selfishly, as somebody who, you know, hires for bioengineering and biotech talent every day, I would say, if you're, if you have any interest in this, study it because it's it's a growing and promising field and so exciting to be part of.

Speaker 1
Right, okay. Well, we're sort of coming to an end now, Michelle, but the last question I wanted to ask you, which I asked her many people is, where do you see the industry in, say, five to 10 years time? Do you think we'll meet our sustainability goals?

Speaker 2
I would maybe answer that question. in two parts. I think, on a kind of consumer and market trend perspective, I think the biggest theme that I see in the future that I envision is basically a future in which sustainability is table stakes. I think right now, more and more brands are learning how to talk about it. But also there are emerging brands that just have it in their ethos from the beginning. And I think that is going to be the norm in in a very kind of rapidly approaching future. If not, it's sort of already kind of here and expected from from many customers now. And a second part and the second kind of way to answer the question is from a kind of technology trend perspective, and even just thinking about the kind of the biomaterial space that we're in, I think it'll be a really interesting time in the next five to 10 years, where we're really going to see technologies and companies like, like ours, maturing and scaling for the first time. And so I think what makes that really exciting for the entire fashion ecosystem is just more understanding that everyone's going to develop together, more playbooks, better infrastructure to support all of that. And so I'm really excited for the growth and sort of coming of age of these types of technologies as well.

Speaker 1
Well, that's so encouraging, isn't it? Because the textile industry feel what it feels like we've been in quite a dark space for a few years, with everyone pointing the finger and rightly so at how polluting it is. And I think that statistic that we're the second most polluting industry in the world gets thrown around a lot. But it sounds like we've got a bright future ahead of us. So yeah, it's going to be very exciting, I think to see what will come out of all of this. 

Speaker 2
Yeah, I think there is a lot that is emerging. And there's a there's a possibility for a really bright future. And so I really hope to see the textile industry kind of working together really open mindedly as I think I have already seen to, to adopt new innovative practices and bring a better future for all of us. So yeah, I'm, I'm thrilled to kind of be part of it and to observe and sit back and watch and enjoy. 

Speaker 1
Well, Michelle, I mean, I think that's all we've got time for today, unfortunately. But I mean, thank you very much for talking with me today. About here. It sounds like such a great company and I wish you all the best. Thank you.

Speaker 2
Thanks again. I so enjoyed it and I had a lot of fun.