Ep. 78: Digitising safety workwear Ankit Podcast

This transcription has been AI generated and therefore may have some inaccuracies.

Ep. 78: Digitising safety workwear

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is David Dillon, smart apparel business lead at W L Gore.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: David Dillon

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen, and I'm part of the team here at WTiN. And this is the WTiN podcast. Join me my guests every month as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week, I am joined by David Dillon, who is a smarter powerful business leader at WL Gore. David talks about the company's wearable work where that can monitor and predict workplace injuries. Its latest collaboration with the startup life booster and how the future is all about data collection and digitising workwear.

Good afternoon, David, thank you so much for coming on the show today. How are you? Excellent.

Speaker 2
I really appreciate you having me. Looking forward to our conversation.

Speaker 1
Yes. And so you're calling from North Carolina? Is that right?

Speaker 2
Wilmington, North Carolina on the shores? Great.

Speaker 1
I mean, I understand that it's a bit of a sort of textile epicentre in the US really, isn't it? Well, for technical textiles and nonwovens, and things like that. Oh, yeah. 

Speaker 2
So North Carolina has had a long tradition been in in textile business. And as we say, here in North Carolina, it's textile, not textile. And but North Carolina State University here in Raleigh is still one of the leaders in in textiles, all kinds. So that's kind of been a an epicentre for the US. All right, interesting.

Speaker 1
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, because I think the plan is to talk about smart apparel and smart work where I think I read a press release about what you guys are doing a little while ago. So it's great that we can actually explore this in a bit more detail over the next half an hour or so. So, I mean, firstly, then do you mind just sort of telling our listeners a bit more about WL gore? I mean, what exactly does the company do someone have heard of it, but it'd be great to have like a bit more background. 

Speaker 2
So Gore, WL gore and Associates is a private company, we're about 60 years old, and really started by Bill Gore, who had a vision of applying material science, into solving problems and all kinds of areas in different parts of people's lives. So we've become a rather big company now, and have multiple interests in different areas, you I'm sure, you may be familiar with GoreTex, our GoreTex fabrics, which is probably the most well known, but we have a significant business in implantable medical devices that got over 10 million devices that are inside people helping save and improve their lives. And we have an industrial group that does things from sustainability and, you know, pollution control, all the way to small devices that go into mobile phones to make them more waterproof. And so this is a it's really focused on improving people's lives, and in different ways leveraging science, as well as just a focus on that solving interesting problems that may exist. Right?

Speaker 1
Yeah, as you say, I have heard of gore tex that you're right. I think that definitely is the one you're most well known for. But obviously, you're the smarter power business lead at WL gore. So I mean, how long has this sort of been a part of the business? And how long have you been the lead here?

Speaker 2
So we've been working at, you know, smart apparel as we define it, or wearables in depending on who want, you know, different definition, we've been looking into this area, you know, I think he may remember, the Internet of Things became a thing about 10 years ago, as you know, connecting devices that you know, wouldn't, would normally be connected, not just like telephones or computers. But beyond that. So we began our search at that point, and really looking for interesting problems to solve. And I got involved about two years ago. And as we began to look for different areas to invest in for new opportunities, and since sort of became the CEO, if you will, of the smart apparel venture about a year ago. 

Speaker 1
And so when did you guys sort of decided that, you know, smart textiles and wearable technology could be actually maybe the next big thing for sort of work wear and that I mean, when did you guys start to get really excited about the possibilities here?

Speaker 2
About About two years ago, we identified this big interesting problem, which is around workplace injuries. And you know, it's, it's, it's a big problem. I mean, think about it 10s of millions of people in the United States, and even more around the world get injured in their career at work. And so it's a big problem. It's a very expensive problem. Accenture did a study a couple years ago, that's estimated $260 billion is the cost in the United States for direct workplace injuries and the indirect costs of loss of productivity and other things that happen. So it's a very expensive problem. And you know, I think probably most obvious, it's, there's a lot of human cost, you think about someone, you know, in their 40s, or 50s, they've been working their whole life, and they're not able to enjoy things in their retirement or, you know, because they've got lingering knee injury or back injury. So we felt like this was a really important area to focus on. And we identified that the challenge was this, right now, injuries are people that reactively treated, you treat them not proactively, or prevent them. And we felt that if we could bring smart apparel, into an individual data capture, if you will, that could really bring good data to to, to the experts, you could predict and then actually prevent the injuries from happening. So this insight became the whole basis of focusing this effort. 

Speaker 1
And so one of the company's most recent announcements, then in this area, the one I sort of wanted to talk most about today concerns a collaboration with LifeBoost, I think, can you tell me a bit more about this company, then? I mean, why did you want to work with them on this project? And when did you first sort of get in touch with the company and you know, start talks about it all.

Speaker 2
So like booster is a startup out of Vancouver, Canada. And, you know, they have, we ran into them at an industry conference, as we were exploring and looking into this space a little a little over two years ago, actually. And we realised we had a lot in common and you know, so the way that I would encourage you to think about smart apparel, for it to be important or for it to be valuable, you need three things to three pillars that have to happen. First, you have to effectively capture the data. In this case, ergonomic or movement data of a worker, you have to capture it effectively and accurately. And then it has to be analysed accurately, and then a report or an insight, you know, so if it needs to be given to a health and safety professional, who then can interpret the data and say, Okay, now I know what to do to be able to prevent this injury or reduce this risk. So those are the three pillars. Life booster r&d had been working on all three, but their real expertise is in that insights or that data delivery report, and it will in the areas of accurate analytics. They had tremendous capability there, and they had some early on data capture, but it wasn't apparel yet. We felt like we could bring the apparel side to this and work together to build this, these three pillars to then be able to provide that preventative action for for companies.

Speaker 1
Okay, I see. So, with regards to this, and I mean, what's the main purpose of the collaboration? I mean, what sort of job related injuries have you got in mind? Or is it just anything and everything you can sort of help with? 

Speaker 2
Well, we aren't we certainly have, you know, targets that we're looking at. And so just to give you an idea, some colour here, just imagine a person who works at the Toyota plant and Germantown, Kentucky assembling engines, or someone who's electrician, who is running wire at the Gulfstream plant in. In Georgia, what they have in common is that they are highly skilled jobs, that also are physically complex, a lot of bending, stooping, you know, standing excetera and these are the type of jobs that we're targeting that that ones that we you know, that you the injuries tend to be difficult to predict and have a lot of impact if you lose a key person on the line. 

Speaker 1
And so how exactly do you imagine the I don't know the garments that you're developing of life Feaster to help them I mean, will they be like, I don't know, sensors integrated and Will they, you know, as you say, they captured the data they capture if someone's been sitting too long or standing too long, and well, they may be perhaps get a warning saying you should, you know, go for a walk for 10 minutes or, I mean, I'm just trying to picture how it would actually work in reality, right.

Speaker 2
So it is, you know, you're putting sensors and electronics into apparel, a shirt, and we have a generation one today, which is, which is doing that we're developing, more convenient, easier to use more durable, more invisible. These are buzzwords to say, you know, just more like a regular shirt. And what this does is it captures your movement data, and is presented in this report. And this report goes to the health and safety professional and it lists, risks, like the you know, the the Jessica is, you know, is at risk for a shoulder injury, while she's working in this area. So then the health and safety professionals know, especially if they're, you know, your other colleagues are also having shoulder risk for shoulder injury, that they may need to change that workstation. Or they need to do behavioural training, which you mentioned, to give you a better way to lift. So you know, it can be a bit of both. And there are a lot of very talented economists and other folks that know how to implement those changes. The challenge for them is they haven't been able to learn exactly where the risks or the problems are, because sometimes they're counterintuitive. 

Speaker 1
What sort of senses and different technologies will be integrated into this do? Do you know much about the technology? And I don't know whether there's like I did it cloud based platforms, and all this behind it? I mean, what sort of things are you working with you able to say? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, so I mean, in effect, this is, you know, accelerometers, etc, are, you know, fairly widely known that if, you know, put in the right place, you can, you can see movement, I mean, you're probably familiar that with watching some of the, you know, the Marvel movies, you know, how do you think they, they do all that, you know, green screen work, they, they actually put different sensors, and they can be, they can be analysed about how people are moving. But what this does, it actually compares it to the ergonomic standards, there have been, you know, scientist and physicians, physiologists have determined, what kind of movement will individually cause repetitive motion injury. So, it's not necessarily the first time something happens, I mean, those accidents do occur, where, you know, you catastrophic, something falls off, or, you know, there's a forklift accident, but most of the injuries occur when it's a repetitive motion. And so that is then transmitted to the cloud. The cloud is where the it analyses your movement against these ergonomic standards. And then a report life booster generates a report based on a dashboard that your company asked for, they're specifically looking for certain things in certain areas. And then, you know, it's, it's really a, we call it you know, it's more like a software as a service business, or data as a service, then, you know, selling apparel, this is not a model, we sell apparel, it's really, the company is Toyota or Gulfstream is my examples would be buying those insights through a report. 

Speaker 1
Okay, that makes a lot more sense, actually. So the sensors, and I don't know what other materials and components you're using, are these things that goal manufactures itself? Or do you just sort of assemble them into a garment such as this? 

Speaker 2
No, we don't make you know, integrated circuits or microchips. But you know, it's a question of working with life is your design a system, procuring it, and then integrating it? The trick isn't that the electronics per se, or anything new, but, you know, just electronics and washing machines usually don't mix. And so the trick is actually creating something that is comfortable enough to wear, durable enough to be washed over a period of time that so it lasts. And so this is really what we're bringing our insights in. It's not necessarily the chip itself, but how its packaged, how it's, you know, utilised where it is, and, and how it can be done in a quality way. So this shirt will continue to last

Speaker 1
these first garments then I've read that they've already been tested and developed and I mean, you just say shirt, they're so it's a shirt, the first thing that you've developed or they're perhaps trousers or something else. 

Speaker 2
So it's a sure because really what you're looking for, to be able to give data or analysis on the shoulders, the arms, you know, the back, you know, and you know, the hips and knees and you can do this with a shirt. And so What what we have is the first generation, we actually, you know, shirts have pockets and these these devices or gateways are placed in these pockets. And then you go about doing your work. And then the data is analysed, a tremendous amount of data is captured in a short period of time, much faster than the human eye can do it, which is one of the advantages, we're looking forward. Like I said in the future, to make it even more and more integrated, less and less of a hassle. Just like you said, you just open you know, open your locker and put a shirt on and go to work.

Speaker 1
So I mean, how accepting Do you think people will be of maybe this first iteration? How do you think people respond to it.

Speaker 2
So when we look at reaction or get reactions from from workers, it's very interesting, because when you present it in a way, that is, it's about helping them go home, healthy, every day, no injury free, they embrace it, especially when they understand that we are operating on the strictest areas of privacy. This is not a monitoring device, it's an assessment. If you know the company, and we don't see information that is not specifically in while you're working, etc, then there's a there's a really we've we've actually unions, as an example, I've been very interested in how this can help their workers. So we're getting a lot of positive reaction. But it's a new technology. And so when you think about other parts of the company, you know, it's got to be proven and case studies, which is rightfully so. And I think that's one of the advantages of life, booster and gore, we're very science based. And when we talk to the, to the health professionals, or even integrating with the the intellectual, the IT departments, that these are all important things that matter when you're you're coming in with a system that hooks to the cloud, and is operating in somebody's, you know, manufacturing facility.

Speaker 1
Well, that's interesting, what you say about data protection, actually, was that something you considered from the beginning? Or was it an after thought, and were there any other factors you hadn't considered initially that you later had to include? 

Speaker 2
Well, we are definitely learning. And, and so the in learning every day, and there are a lot of things that we go, oh, my gosh, didn't think about that. But the privacy concerns actually was was outlined fairly early in a Gore is very dedicated and focused on, you know, maintaining the highest privacy and data security standards, because we've had a consumer facing business for quite some time. And so this has become quite important. Even though this isn't consumer facing per se, it's you know, it's relationships with with businesses, it's still very important to protect it. So the privacy of individuals, and you're a regardless of whether we have a direct relationship or an indirect one. So that became important, and that was one of the reasons, you know, we were drawn to life booster, their focus is the same in some of these privacy protocols, you know, the firewalls, if you will keep things from, you know, being shared, like I said, you know, companies can't see how many times someone might use the bathroom is that data is not collected. And if you know, if there's geolocation data known, it's not, it's not part of the dashboard, it's not part of the report. And so, you know, it's, it's done, you know, separate and that, again, is, in a secure environment is secure as you you can be in those in those settings.

Speaker 1
So you said that you're still learning I mean, what other things have sort of cropped up as you've gone on developing this?

Speaker 2
Well, I mean, you know, things that, you know, the the technical challenges of, you know, how do you wash something like this and, you know, you know, how do you dry it, how do you deal with stains and, and etc, to also, you know, the differences in there's a lot of diverse people and their sizes, you know, men women, you know, big tall, small, and creating a solution that these sensors need to stay in place or it doesn't work. And so however, you can't really ask someone to come to work every day, you know, wearing a body suit, it's just not comfortable and it's not flattering. You know, maybe for a few few people that you know, but most you know would rather not wear something is tight fitting so those have been the challenges and we've we've actually navigating through them pretty well. You know, coming up with ways that make it so the sensors still are still work, but at the same time, it's a as flattering as possible, not something we thought of in the beginning, is you thinking about workplace safety, you're not thinking of flattering clothing, as you would maybe if you were in the consumer business?

Speaker 1
And what about the actual manufacturing of the garments? I mean, we've already spoken about, like, the different components and how they work and stuff. But have you had to establish like a whole new supply chain to sort of account for the materials? Because traditionally, electronics and clothing just don't mix? So I mean, has that been another challenge for you?

Speaker 2
It's probably one of the biggest challenges, to be honest, that said, there are no standards for wearables, or smart apparel or integrated, you know, apparel is electronics, there's no industry standards. So everything else in electronics has an industry standard, almost everything. And so you just can't just order these parts, you know, and, you know, how do you integrate them? How do you test it? You know, which, you know, what standards organisation applies? Does it need to be UL listed? I mean, these are, this is a, you know, new frontier, and creating a supply chain, you know, so we're working with other industry players, you know, throughout the world trying to help determine about those standards, but it also leads to the kind of supply chain. And so we're building an end to end supply chain. As we speak, we've made significant progress, obviously got the generation one out into the market. But as we go forward, and we think about a ramping up and creating something that we can supply readily, you know, it cost effectively. That's, that's really one of our focuses. And one of the things that I spent quite a bit of time, you know, working with our operations team,

Speaker 1
as you say, there aren't any standards in this area yet. But do you reckon there will be one day? And if so, are we talking gaze, or how long are you generally things take longer than they should, right?

Speaker 2
So it's probably going to be years, but there is effort along those lines. And, you know, there's quite a few different conferences that are bringing this up, and really not prepared to speak to all the different acronyms of all these different groups that were belong to, are a part of, but I'm pretty convinced that as this becomes a commercial reality, and it's not just for workplace safety, the side of it, but it's just wearables, in general, whether they're, you know, do biometric monitoring, which is kind of like your Fitbit, or others, I think that that's gonna happen.

Speaker 1
Okay, interesting. Now, another question I wanted to ask, I mean, you said, your generation one is already on the market? I mean, How expensive are we talking? And a significantly more expensive than just, you know, standard work? Where? And is it going to be affordable for companies to buy this sort of thing? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, I think the way I'd encourage you to look at this, since that the apparel in and of itself isn't sold, you compare it to the other costs of, of safety action that people are doing, whether it's task assessment, audits done by, you know, ergonomists, or etc. And so this, these are, these are very competitive, you know, where you either have a cost per assessment or a annual fee, if you would use, you know, would use the report for, you know, per worker per year, it's very competitive compared to other inkind type costs, you know, and so it actually, is even, you know, cheaper than the cost of flying people all over the country, if you've got 40 plants that you need to go, do work in, it really helps multiply these health and safety professionals, which they're very few, believe it or not, and some of these very big companies, they're, they're not very many of these folks. And so any tool that helps them be to places that wants, if you will, really pays if that pays off, and actually saves the company money. Now, that's just direct costs. And you talk about the indirect cost. It's even more.

Speaker 1
I mean, didn't you say at the beginning, it was something like an estimated 260 billion pounds is associated with these injuries. So yeah, that's very true, actually. Yeah. Right. 

Speaker 2
But it's still I mean, you think about the injury costs, you know, they've have three major components, the direct costs, so if you're a company that's self insured, and has to pay for all your workers comp injuries, you got to pay that, but then you've got to pay the person who to replace the person who's out, and you've got to pay for the productivity loss, because generally, you know, people can't just jump in and do the job as effectively as the person who was there. So you may be, you know, producing slightly less cars or, you know, slightly less aeroplanes or whatever you're doing, and you know, that that's where that's tremendous costs, and then you get the human cost where people do Do they even want to work there, you know, if this is a place where everybody gets hurt, nobody wants to get hurt. And so now with the job market is as tight as it is, and it's, you know, how competitive we all are to get, you know, good, you know, employees and good workers, you want a good reputation as a safe place.

Speaker 1
Right? Okay. So I mean, considering the amount of money that's going on trying to well, going on workplace injuries, and, you know, the opportunities that smart Apparel offers, I mean, is, is gone, the only one looking into this or other sort of safety apparel companies also, you know, following suit, you

Speaker 2
know, we're not the only one looking into it. And, you know, there are quite a few really reputable companies, whether they're startups like, life booster, or, you know, major safety, you know, companies that have been in the, you know, the safety solution businesses for a long time. And, you know, that we see, that is actually a good thing, because when to create a new industry, I mean, we're really talking about digitising safety. And, you know, maybe I should have brought this up earlier, but it's the digitization of safety, like the digitization of the rest of the company, that can have a big impact. And we can't do this alone, we need, we needed other industry partners to create the standards I talked about, we also need folks to be able to, you know, we're going we're not going to be able to solve every single workplace injury problem, our approach is, you know, as you'll see, for the high skilled, sort of physically complex jobs, but there are a lot of other jobs that we need to other solutions for. So we see, you know, really, uh, I'm glad we have some good competition, especially in areas that we're really not focused, because we need to, you know, this tide needs to come in, if we're going to be able to make, you know, to create this, this workplace safety, solution. environment.

Speaker 1
This is all very interesting, actually. I mean, I've spoken to other wearable companies before some have been monitoring health again, but more to do with say, strokes or ECG, others are looking at say sportswear in athletic applications. But I hadn't realised that smart work where was growing, as well as an industry especially work where that actually integrates the senses that you're not even aware of it? I mean, what do you imagine the future of work were to look like, if things further progress? I mean, will there be more Marvel universe like work where, like you mentioned earlier, or what,

Speaker 2
hopefully, we all are such in good shape as as Hollywood actors, so we can wear those uniform. But if we're not, then I think we're, we see us being able to be I talked about their their three pillars, as I mentioned, and this effective data capture was the first one, which is where smart apparel comes in. So we see that getting less and less distracting, as you said, more invisible, so you don't know you have it on. But I also we also see other technologies within that space, over the years, cameras, you know, using AI to be able to analyse movement, that that can be very effective. When you've got it, you know, you you're not crawling under an aircraft wing, where the camera can see you. And so we see those offering solutions and, and maybe, you know, more, less than less, you know, less common, we have a shirt, there may be you know, different types of apparel, gloves, belts, you know, etc, that that are trying to solve specific, different solutions. But over time, we see you know, it becomes more and more a predictive analytics where you're, we're getting more and more data. So then you can you can actually see a cause and effect and take take the real understanding to the next level. I mean, think about 20 years ago when they started to digitise inventory. So accompany you know, now the computer knew exactly how much stuff they had and where it was. Well, today that's advanced to the point where I could go online right now with my phone, and know exactly how many, whatever Thanksgiving, you know, carving sets exist on Amazon, and there are three left and if I order it combat instantly knowing exactly what's there. So we see that same thing happening with with workplace safety and digitising of safety is you'll be able to have so much better information to be able to make so much better decisions. And we need to go beyond just the Preventing right now. Sort of the big injuries but you know, the knees, the backs the shoulders, but maybe getting into much, much more interesting areas. You know beyond it like fatigue, and other things that you could be able to prevent, you know, accidents from happening. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, it sounds like such an exciting space to be in. Now we're running out of time. Mind, but there are two more things I wanted to ask you. And the first question is whether you've had to consider sustainability in all of this. I mean, cop 26 has just happened. So it's kind of on everyone's mind at the moment, but it must be very difficult to balance, you know, protecting the environment with actual people's lives that you're having to protect as well.

Speaker 2
Well, you know, just like anything else, right, we're always trying to, to solve many things at once. And sometimes you have to be compromised. Yeah. And we, we've, you know, we have designed the end of life into this apparel, and in the beginning, so that we, you know, it's Gore has a fairly established and well known sustainability programme. So, you know, just to be very practical, we don't want the shirts going into a landfill, you know, if, you know, until it's that really at the end of life, you know, so we were designing in how you can separate electronics from the textile, and maybe reuse, you know, one or both. And that's an example how sustainability is part of the design process process in the beginning, as well as the whole ecosystem we're trying to build, you know, with our partners. 

Speaker 1
I mean, finally, then, I mean, other than this collaboration with lifebuoy, sir, and, and looking after, or trying to prevent workplace injuries, I mean, is your department at WL Gore sort of working on anything else? Or can you envision this sort of technology helping other areas outside of injuries or what?

Speaker 2
We do have visions, and you mentioned a second ago, that in areas, whether it is, you know, elderly care, or health care, or athletic performance, where this technology can be utilised. So we see maybe over time being able to leverage it into other markets. You know, right now, you know, we're not very active on those fronts, but we see that as a possibility in the next seven to 10 years. 

Speaker 1
But it sounds like the next decade is definitely going to be well, it's gonna keep you busy, at least with all these plans, and all the possibilities out there. So I mean, as I said, David, unfortunately, we're running out of time, but I mean, it's been such a pleasure to have you on the podcast, and I'm really excited about the work that you're doing. So I mean, thank you so much for sharing it with me and our audience today. Thank you.

Speaker 2
I'm so glad you invited me and now we've had a good chance to to talk hopefully in the future I can. I can give you an update when some of these dreams become reality.