Ep. 77: Bacterial nanocellulose used to make sustainable leather alternative Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 77: Bacterial nanocellulose used to make sustainable leather alternative

This week’s guest on The WTiN Podcast is Zimri Hinshaw, CEO of Bucha Bio.

Speaker 1: WTiN
Speaker 2: Zimri Hinshaw

Speaker 1
Hello, my name is Jessica Irwin and I'm part of the team here at WTI n. And this is the WTI mn podcast. Join me and my guests every month as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTI mn podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. This week. I'm joined by Zimri Hinshaw, who is the CEO of the biomaterials business, Bucha bio,

Sainte Marie talks about the company's alternative to leather, which is made from bacterial nanocellulose. The different finishes properties and applications available, plans to set up a pilot production facility in the near future, and much more. Good morning, Zimri. And welcome to the WTI in podcast, how are you? 

Speaker 2
Hey, Jessica, I'm really well, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1
No, you're very welcome. It is lovely to finally meet you. And I believe you're in New York City. So I mean, how's life there at the moment? Is it starting to feel autumnal? Like someone's gone like here in the UK, unfortunately,

Speaker 2
it took a while to get here in Manhattan. But finally, we're starting to feel the cold weather roll in. And I'm ready. I think that summer went a little longer than then used to. I'm not saying it's climate change, but it's definitely climate change. 

Speaker 1
Well, you've been lucky than we are here. I mean, you wouldn't have thought climate change happened in the UK. But well, actually, we've had more rain. And that's, you know, more extreme weather. So that is another symptom of that little issue we've got going on in the world. But I bet New York is beautiful this time of year. I'm very jealous.

Speaker 2
It's a lot of fun to be in New York. And it's also fun to be near, you know, right in the middle of the action in terms of the fashion industry and all of our partners here, close to material Innovation Initiative, and those folks as well. So it's a fun place to be, but nothing beats the scenery, scenery of United Kingdom, obviously,

Speaker 1
obviously, of course. Well, I mean, thank you so much for joining me, as I said, and what the plan is to talk all about your company's innovation, which is a sustainable alternative to leather from what I gather. But before we sort of dive into the product itself, I mean, do you mind just sort of setting the scene a bit? I mean, what is the problem associated with conventional nether and why are alternatives like yours sort of needed? 

Speaker 2
Absolutely. Well, there's kind of two phases of this problem and the entrepreneur understands a problem as an opportunity. And so there's kind of two phases of this coin. The first absolutely is the environmental piece, when we talk about traditional animal leather or you know, why don't we adjust the scope and think of Mariah or novel bio material or about textile not only as an alternative to leather, but also being able to be used like you know, vinyl or like, you know, polyurethane and a lot of other things as well. So, if we look at that more holistically, we understand that not only is leather really toxic, you know, using chromium tanning, vegetable tanning, a lot of these chemicals ending up in in in freshwater sources, where things are tend and used. But also we talk about things like vinyl or PVC polyvinyl chloride, none of these things will really biodegrade it can take up to 600 years for PVC polyvinyl chloride to to biodegrade. But beyond that, when you're wearing these items, whether it's a chromium 10 skin, or whether it's you know, a PVC or even, you know, plastic type leather jackets, or you're wearing a motorcycle jacket and those sort of flake off, you're putting your skin and your body and your airway in direct kind of proximity to some pretty nasty chemicals and so not only is it really toxic for the environment and threatening our food supply and our ocean water and and all these things, but it's also toxic for you personally, with the items you're wearing probably right now.

Speaker 1
And so, I mean, you said your product then is called Maria Maria Am I pronouncing that right?

Speaker 2
The product is in this bio textile is no bio material is called mirre which is inspired by the Japanese word for future and according to our partners in Italy, also the kind of a similar to the word in Italian for look with emphasis, which we thought was quite quite fitting in our partners in Italian footwear especially are pretty happy about that little coincidence.

Speaker 1
Yeah, it's a nice link, isn't it? So I mean this product, then I mean, how is yours grown? I mean, it's definitely not come from cattle. I imagine. So I mean, how have you made this alternative?

Speaker 2
Yeah. So it all starts with Well, I'm sure you know about kombucha. Have you ever drinking kombucha? Jessica? 

Speaker 1
I actually haven't no.

Speaker 2
You are one of the few there. Kombucha is a big industry but but I'm sure you know about it, at least you you kind of know the process. I'll give you an overview if you don't. So, you take a consortia or a group of bacteria and yeast, and you grow them in say, sweet black tea. And they will ferment over, you know, 2114 10 days to create kombucha, this fermented beverage, which is you know, has a delicious sort of sour taste. But also these bacteria, specifically ks Island is which is in strain will produce bacterial nanocellulose, commonly known in the kombucha makers world as SCOBY, which stands for symbiotic symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast. Now, that's not really accurate to define the bacteria that Sal hit that forms as a SCOBY. Because the scoby that's in by culture would actually be the growth media, but also, you know, bacteria and things existing in that layer. Anyway, long story short, is that over 14 days, we take our own kind of custom, strain and yeast mixed. And it forms this gelatinous, sort of layer of bacterial nano cellulose on top of the brew, or on top of these tubs that we grow. And that forms the basis for not only Mirai as a technology, but other potential technologies, packaging materials, hard composites, different ratios of Vectren NSOs exists and can be applied to different materials to give them different properties. So that's kind of where it all starts is in a vertical farm grown for a few days before this thing forms. And cellulose is found extremely abundantly in nature, different kinds of cellulose, it's in, you know, trees, it's in paper, it's in fruit, it's in a plethora of organic matter. But it's really has unique properties, especially bacteria and assay loads in the way that it has sort of strengthen inequalities, or increases tensile strength and forms a sort of a crystal and or potentially a amorphous network of these strands inside the textile almost like you're adding rebar to concrete. It's good analogy. Yeah. Does that make sense? 

Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I think I kept up with you. Yeah. So I mean, how long does it take to produce and I'm imagining it's quite a while?

Speaker 2
Well, you would think, but actually, it's very quick. A cow takes what, two to three years to reach a suitable slaughter weight, possibly sooner, depending on whatever growth hormones and PVC are these plastic materials, you know, they can take 35 to 45 days for a full production run, to grow our bacteria that has halos component, it takes us, you know, the first layer grows in just just 20 days or so. And the next two layers grow in 14 days respectively. Now, that doesn't mean that we can create a sheet of textile in 14 days, that means we can create a shoe textile in you know, a day or and a half because we don't actually turn that back tonight and say loose alone into a sheet of textile. It's not like we're traditionally come Bucha let and I have to give homage and pay homage and respect to the credit predecessors of kombucha based biomaterials. Specifically Suzanne Lee, who is sort of the the mother of kombucha bio materials. And what a lot of these groups did before but your bio was take these sheets, and that was it, you grow a sheet, you extract it, you dry it, and that forms your textile. Unfortunately, that's not very scalable. And so what we do instead is actually grind down and mill down those those veteran NSA loose sheets into nanocrystals, which then form the basis of these different composites. And so it's a little bit of a different strategy. And we have a lot of nanocrystals, that these these, these things are very efficient. To efficient. We have too much. I don't know where to put it.

Speaker 1
Right. Well, that is sort of answered quite a few of my questions. So I was wondering, like, how much of this you could actually create it one time, but if you're saying that you've got too much, then clearly that's not a worry of yours. 

Speaker 2
No, it's not. Out of a tiny room. You can stack these tubs in a vertical space. And yes, you know, you can be a very sophisticated, very fancy biotech company that does a continuous flow fermentation. And maybe we'll get there. And maybe that's where you want to take this. But the fact is, is that if you stack these tubs and you have a good protocol, you can turn a 300 square foot room into a, you know, vertical farm that can produce 100 Linear metres every 14 days. It's just not.

Speaker 1
It's just not a problem. So I mean, that's interesting, then, because one of the questions I'd written down here was even say, if demand for this product picked up in a few years time, like would production even be able to cope with this? So I mean, say if it, could it ever, in theory match, you know, the traditional leather industry and being able to produce the same amount? 

Speaker 2
Well, my strategy is, is very much aligned with working with third party extrusion companies. So our ambition here, the current thing that we're really de risking and talking with these different companies about in the area in the United States is, can you take our composite? So you can you take this bio polymer once we've added the bacteria, NNSA lows, to all these other amazing plant based bio polymers. And we kind of mix this all up together and add our natural dyes. Can you then take that and reform it in a way that you could put it through a typical extrusion line, the same kinds of extrusion lines that today are used to make PVC or faux synthetic leather or plastic sheeting. And so if you understand that, the fo are the plastic materials, vinyl and PVC and then faux leathers like that, if you understand that, that industry is much larger in volume than the animal leather industry, then we absolutely have the potential to have the you know, economies of scale, larger than or Meat Animal leather. I think that is a possibility. Right now, I think we're focused on really creating a luxury premium product and focus less on on massive scale and and bringing down that price point and more on, you know, the customizability for our clients, and this sort of heritage of creating something with this this past using kombucha biomaterials and, and understanding where we fit into this market. Well, not trying to displace necessarily some of these jobs that that we might be displacing in the long term. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. I see where you're coming from. You mentioned customising products for your clients just then. I mean, can you add different effects and finishes and make the leather look and feel different at all for different applications? Then,

Speaker 2
you know, yes, me, right? It has almost infinitely customizable, you know, applications in terms of you know, at the end of the day, this shifts towards creating a true composite material was a significant one, in that. Now we can add any dye, we can add any colour way we can add any texture, we can add any effect, just this day. Some of our investors from Brazil, were asking me, Can you send us a glow in the dark version of mirror? I said, yeah, that's, that's actually much easier than a lot of these other effects. So transitioning towards a true composite really opens the door to being able to add whatever you want in terms of texture impression. A lot of these brands are asking us for different things. Some people want, you know, a very glossy read and other people, well, let's be honest, the majority want a matte black. And so we can absolutely customise these kinds of characteristics but also the you know, the the surface Handfield the texture on top, if you want to add, I'm really against adding necessarily like crocodile skin pattern or, you know, a skin type design on top is that's not what we're our ambition is. But I found a lot of cool plants that have really interesting textures that are like crocodile skin. We're thinking about doing that kind of thing instead. So the sky is the limit. Right?

Speaker 1
Interesting. Okay. And you said earlier as well that you've actually made a natural dye to go with me, right. Is that right?

Speaker 2
I will clarify that. It's not us who makes us natural dye.

Speaker 1
Right.

Speaker 2
We can do a lot. You know, we're a material science company. We're a biotechnology company, and that's our focus. Luckily, there's lots of the It's interesting companies who use even spoken with, they're doing really amazing dyes. And so for us collaborating with those companies makes a lot of sense. So we're working with a few different companies in the dye front. Some are producing, you know, blue pigment, red pigment from algae from spirulina, the company there is Spira, they're a great company. Then on the other side, we're also thinking about a company in Colombia, that's interested in we've tested all these materials doing a dark blue or a black, using jagua, which is sort of an indigenous fruit that has extremely high dying properties. And they're even sending me even sending me a die that the native population in Colombia in the rainforest uses to to Stick and poke and die their skin for tattoos. So that's an interesting black colorway. So we're definitely looking at a few different options for for dye. And there's there's a really sorry that companies eco Fleur cares, if you want to look them up. So we're working with a plethora of companies, there's so many options for natural dyes, there's really no reason to go into a full scale production, not using a natural colour way.

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, you said that your company will be able to scale up if it chooses to, to cope with any demand. But I mean, will these other startups doing dies be able to sort of grow with you? Do you think would that ever become an issue perhaps in future?

Speaker 2
That's a great a great question. We're definitely looking at choosing our suppliers carefully, because my main concern with some of these startups, both in biomaterials, you know, some of our competitors, but also, you know, the dot some of the dye companies is that there's a reliance especially when you when you talk about biotechnology on using bio reactors, and bio fermenters, to the extent that, that technology is expensive. And the scalability is, you know, well, if you want to have really high scale, the capex, or the capital requirements to get there are really, really high and require extremely expensive and really technical machinery. So we do see sort of any company that's producing, say, say, collagen, in a bioreactor, we're producing a die in a bioreactor, there is limitations and there is hiccups. And there is a high or a strong learning curve to be able to scale that kind of technology to the extent that really big pharmaceutical or really big biochemical companies have a been able to do that is a concern I have.

Speaker 1
Yeah, I can completely understand why. But I mean, how amazing would it be if all these companies and as you said, I've spoken to a few of your, your friends on the podcast before, if you could all grow and scale up together and you know, really bump out some of these, you know, environmentally unsustainable companies in future it'd be it'd be so exciting, I think if you all did it and succeeded,

Speaker 2
I would think that that would be amazing, I would be great, I'd be really happy about that, because there are close friends and they're really starting amazing things with amazing technology platforms. As a business person, I know also, to have a backup plan. So you know, we we are putting our foot forward and we'd love to move forward with a lot of these companies and we are moving forward these companies at the same time, there are other more traditional natural dye suppliers that that make things from fruit or, or make things from charcoal or things like this. And of course, I've talked to those suppliers as well. And we have multiple options on the table. So you know, depending on scale, either way, we're gonna go to scale our textile and our material and also just meet other companies that are doing things in bio reactors where they are and you know, still purchasing the dye as they're able to produce it. But but also, you know, hedging hedging our bets with other other more traditional dyes as well. 

Speaker 1
A sensible plan definitely. Now, we've spoken about like effects and finishes and how it looks but how does Mira I actually feel I mean, what's it like to touch does it does it feel like conventional leather or is it a bit plastic like or what? 

Speaker 2
Well, I wouldn't call it plastic like that's one. That's one effect that we are trying hard to make sure that when you feel me arrive, which you feel as well, this, whether it feels like leather or feels like anything else. The first most important thing is that it feels premium that it feels good Now what does that mean? Because Because leather has that characteristic, some plastics have a characteristics, other materials tend to have those characteristics. Silk has that characteristic, right? When you feel this material, it's smooth, your hands gonna gloss right over it, you're going to be able to bend it and flex it and pull it. And when you let it go, it's going to return kind of to its shape. And so that's what's important. I'm actually holding a version of our material right now in my hands as I'm talking because I think that's useful. This end especially is Matt, right, so it's going to be smooth to the touch your hands gonna gloss right over it, it's not going to feel waxy, it's not going to feel some of these other things, which I think is important as well. On the other side, you have a slight more, more more pebbled look where you have sort of your hands going to hit these micro, these sort of this micro texture these these tiny, tiny, tiny tiny bumps. And so it's going to feel slightly more rough to the touch but but more sensual to the touch while the other side, it would be more just right over a smooth and gloss over. And so those are kind of the effects that we're going for him as a handfeel, we use certain items as inspiration, you know, a calf skin or a goat leather is one of them. On the flexibility side, you know, we use vinyl or some of those materials as inspirational materials. And then of course, we take a lot of inspiration from nature. So in the way that that nature fluids materials, the ratios of how a wax or an ingredient would exist in nature, a lot of times, we just take that same ratio and apply it to me, right. And I think that's kind of beautiful. It's sort of a bio mimicking tactic of using, for example, the enzyme pathways that that that you'd use a plant would used for the wax or on the leaf. And we'll take the same ratio and similar effects and copy that. So sometimes we take inspiration from existing materials, leather, vinyl, other other ones on the market. And sometimes we take inspiration from, from natural processes, in terms of how to, you know, figure out the composition of our material?

Speaker 1
And what about technical properties as well that I mean, is it quite strong? Is it durable? Because I mean, conventional leather is known for these sorts of things.

Speaker 2
Yes, it is we understood really early to if we wanted to be functioning in the automotive market, if we want to be functioning on footwear, and handbags and things like that these things get exposed to the elements. And that's important that it's important that this does have a path to biodegrade under the right conditions as well. Because these things are a balancing act, right, you have to balance the biodegradability with the the lifespan and the longevity of your material, the durability from material, these are all trade offs. For us it was really important that it didn't biodegrade when you didn't want it to. And it only biodegrade under under very specific conditions, but conditions that also the average person could could go out and find. So So first addressing technical specifications, you know, the tensile strength of this is comparable, if not superior to add to animal leather, that was really important to us that it had that pole strength. But at the same time, that it had the flexibility of something like vinyl. And so yes, this you know, we have a very high flex Valley test rating. That's where you take a a material and you bend it one way, and then you bend it the other way, and usually do that rhythm, you know, at times hundreds of 1000s of times. So we got a very high score the flux Valley test, our partners in luxury footwear, asked us to hit I think 50,000 cycles. And last time I checked, you were over 120,000 this version, the material that I'm holding right now, you know, has the really high potential of hitting over 200,000, which is the same as animal leather. And so and then in terms of elasticity, you know, we're really aiming for it for that vinyl, like quality, not so much leather, because the leather actually is sometimes good, but oftentimes not what you want. And so we'd like you know, at the same time, different material properties. And another thing we'd like is we would like to have hydrophobicity or water repellency at the same level as something like a vinyl or a PU not so much like like a traditional leather because a traditional other tends to absorb water. Actually, you'd have to take that in and that's not something we want your material.

Speaker 1
Right. Okay, interesting. I'm just going to that point about it being biodegradable, out of curiosity. I mean, what are your thoughts on biodegradability? Because I was at an event the other day and they said, it's sort of becoming a phrase that is becomes an excuse for littering and waste. And if there's an end of life solution, it allows the consumer to think, Oh, it's fine. It'll biodegrade. So I mean, just out of curiosity, what I mean, would you agree with that? I mean, what are your thoughts about it?

Speaker 2
I do not agree with that. I have a pretty I have a pretty strong opinion on this one. And that is, I feel like people or the industry we love to blame the consumer We love to blame the consumer for for thinking, I want to wear the coolest fashion, I want to wear the newest styles, I want to look really, really good. And I want to, you know, pay an affordable price for that, etc, you have fast fashion. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think people should be able to look amazing all the time. I think that's something that that should be achievable for everybody. The problem isn't that people we're human psychology wants to look good. The problem is, is that as an industry, we haven't designed materials that allow for that, you know, where I come from, or the way I was taught about businesses that the client is never wrong. And in this case, I truly do believe that because it exists with me too. Of course, I want to look good as well. Materials should biodegrade materials should go away in a landfill material should return to the earth. That is a design flaw. Waste is a design flaw. It's not the consumers fault. It's our fault as industry incumbents or not my startup, obviously. But I think it's industry incumbents in the industry as a whole that that is responsible for not making materials that have an appropriate end of life. Because if if things do biodegrade when they're supposed to waste doesn't pile up, and it doesn't become the kind of problem that that people think and I think that that requires a mindset change. Now do I think everyone should throw everything out? No, you should use it for as long as humanly possible. And you should, you know, be tactful in your decisions. But, you know, if you go to different parts of a city, and you ask someone who maybe doesn't make a tonne of money, and you say, well, well, what do you you know, you have to get a piece of clothing or you want to look good? Are you going to be able to afford really sustainable, really, really high end things, it's the last thing that's on their mind, we can expect people who are or are working really hard to make ends meet, and to support their families to be able to afford the kinds of materials the kinds of fashion items that that are required to, to to achieve that sustainability. We have to design for that consumer instead. And so our long term ambition is to bring down price point. But focusing on the luxury market is a pathway to get there.

Speaker 1
I mean, just on the on the subject of price point. I mean, how expensive is me right, then? I mean, is it the same as sort of premium leather? Or is it more expensive, less expensive.

Speaker 2
So right now mirror I mirror I specifically, we will always be at a luxury price point. That's important for us. Now, there's other materials that we're designing that that should come out that that might be at a more affordable price wins. And that's our ambition. Long term. But But for right now, for this luxury textile, it's important that it has the premium qualities that the luxury brands need that a specific market need. And that will allow us to create new products with different branding and different sort of personality that can achieve different different parts of this market. So I would say mirror I you know, it is more expensive than premium leather, currently. And I think if you look across the market at a lot of the people in this space, that's pretty consistent across the board. For for where people are right now.

Speaker 1
Well, I mean, so far, we've spoken all about me, Ryan, to into the you know what, what's achievable with it. But I mean, it would be great to actually understand how this all came about. I mean, was it yourself who founded the company or someone else? And I mean, what are the backgrounds of those in your team? But were you all in textiles? Or was it just because you had an interest in fashion and wanted to do something about sustainability? I mean, tell me tell me the story behind it all.

Speaker 2
So absolutely. So So let's flashback three years I was a Temple University undergraduate student studying economics. And I wanted to become an entrepreneur. This was something that I really aspired to be. These are the kind of people that I looked up to. And I had lots of different ideas. And I found myself and a lot of my ideas always coming back to some sort of social, cultural or were environmental, sustain even economic, but environmental sustainability. Every one of my ideas sort of circled back to this and I realised after watching some videos online about people making really early iterations of kombucha biomaterials. Again, I'm going to pay homage here to Suzanne Lee. And realising the potential of this technology, reading a bunch of patents online and realising that that this could be used not just for biomedical applications like was being done in industry, but also to sort of revolutionise textiles and In materials, and that was really inspiring for me to start up. And out of my top university dorm room, I started growing bacteria cellulose and Bucha bio materials to much to my roommates chagrin. He was not happy that I was growing a lot like living biomaterials. If you're listening to this, Josh, I'm sorry, it had to be done. And so, you know, started from very humble beginnings, but very quickly kind of gained support among the Temple University entrepreneurship community, I, you know, we won a few competitions, then I started teaching myself microbiology and the kind of skills you would need to create a vertical farm and to understand how to, you know, artificially, you know, positively select a different cultures for their traits. And two to two and a half years later, we've done something pretty remarkable in terms of, of the microbiology, the biotechnology behind the growth of the base material. And then a lot of our employees and our partners have a more technical background, right, so so we have technicians that run biochemistry technicians that run microbiology and synthetic biology to create strains of these materials, strains of caseolyticus, that they produce, you know, twice as fast and twice as much, and that kind of thing. And so it's really evolved from my understanding, bringing on a team with more technical understanding, while improving my own technical understanding, it's allowed us to scale this technology and to become, you know, have mirror I that that I have today that we have today. That's it's really impactful for those perspectives. And then, of course, we have, you know, I've always been interested in fashion from a very young age and really cared about looking good. And having because I think impressions really matter and how you look and how you present yourself to the world and to other people always matters, you can't tell because this is audio only, but I'm in a suit. Whenever I take an interview, I'm always in a suit. And I think that that kind of ethos carried into to inspire, to work with such amazing companies that we do with that we're prototyping with and working with today. And a lot of our partners are also, you know, very casual, the fashion industry.

Speaker 1
What an interesting story. So I mean, you've obviously come a long way since poor Josh had to put up with you growing all sorts in your in your dorm, but I mean, where is the company at right now, then? I mean, are you producing products? Is anything on the market? Yeah. I mean, what's the plan for you guys for the foreseeable future? 

Speaker 2
Yeah, so so we are producing materials, mostly for kind of early run a prototype. Collections are prototypes with a lot of amazing brands all over the world, a lot of luxury brands in Europe and United States, and South America. So we're producing all these prototypes. And we are producing quite a bit of material here in in in Manhattan. But where this is going next is going to be to a pilot production facility. So it's something a little bit larger, something a little bit more scalable, and also working with extrusion partners, to be able to take our biopolymer and run it through these extrusion lines is how we're going to get to scale really, really quickly. So from now until, you know, the early next year, we're really working with brands to reserve that production and to get them to place orders or, or orders for early stage or for, you know, capsule collections or early runs or, or even a full run out of material. We're looking for those partnerships now. And we're talking with lots of different people about that potential reserve production for when we have this facility up and running really, really early next year. And also, for when we have the partnerships in place to produce this material.

Speaker 1
And mass at this new facility, then is Will that still be in Manhattan, New York, or will it be elsewhere?

Speaker 2
Well, I'll tell you one thing, it definitely won't be in Manhattan. Oh, my God, very expensive. In Manhattan, we're looking at you know, we're looking at a few different options. Right now. We've put a few different feelers out for terms of lease options. And in terms of location, some of those options that we've looked at are in Brooklyn. So some of them continue to be in New York. Others, you know, we put out feelers and we've kind of assessed the market and the the the feasibility of building a team, you know, elsewhere as well, down in the Research Triangle in North Carolina. You know, Houston, Texas, and so it's really going to be of course, we'd love to be in New York, and we'll see. You know, who which landlord can come back and give us a great deal. But as a CEO, it's my job to put the company first and what's best for the company and how can we really scale this up to achieve our goal of building this big and bold and and also making sure everyone's happy with where they're living in on the salaries do and so those are the kinds of behind the scenes logistics that probably don't want people don't talk about. But what are really important when you're building something like this? 

Speaker 1
Now, unfortunately, Zimri we're sort of running out of time. But the final question I wanted to ask you is where you imagined the industry to be in, say, 10 years time, do you think like the companies such as yourselves and those your you've been working with will, you know, become the norm? I mean, and is there anything that the wider industry could do to sort of help companies such as yours succeed and become more sustainable?

Speaker 2
So, you know, in 10 years, we absolutely see this, this material being being really on the market, with lots of different collections happening, and really being a commercially product that that anyone can purchase, right? So not just collections with brands, but also, you know, anyone can go online and get a bunch of material for it. And so that's the kind of scale that we see this in the next 10 years, not just in in Mira, not just in the biotech style, but also in, in packaging and construction materials and hard composites. So So not just imagine a leather jacket, not just the fabric, but also the buttons and the zipper made from from Bucha bio materials. So that's kind of the scale, we want, you know, many production facilities all over the world, in Southeast Asia, in Brazil, we want to do this really, really big, really bold, and we want to be the cutting edge for Biomaterials in material science. And that's the kind of company we want to build that that has that kind of really grand scope. And that's also how we're going to make a great return for our investors, right, which is also very important in the startup like this. And that's definitely the vision, I would say that brands can help by believing in companies like Bucha, bio early, take a risk, you know, get out there, and reserve production and make an order and believe in these companies. You know, give them a shot to make a collection to prove to you that the sustainable way is the best way and that you have the backing and have the confidence to be able to build something really big and meet the demand. And so I think that certain brands are very good at this meeting startups where they are, and willing to back them and willing to put in money early, those kinds of things that you're willing to put in an order earlier, willing to take a chance, those kinds of things. You know, they build momentum, and they allow you to raise more money, and bring in more partners and bring in more brands. And so it's sort of this this cascading effect. And I would say that, that's that'd be my advice to brands is helped me build this by believing in this early.

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. I completely agree with you. I mean, everyone else I've spoken to on this podcast said the same thing. And I honestly do think that, I mean, if the sort of plant based, you know, food industry is anything to go by, I do think investors are, you know, intrigued by, you know, the sustainable textile and apparel industry and what it might be in future. So, I mean, I have a lot of faith in companies like yours, you'll make it somewhere. So I think it's very exciting for people like you. So I wish you all the best.

Speaker 2
Thank you. Thank you so much, Jessica. It was such a pleasure to be on. I love what you're doing with with the programme and the effect that it's having.

Speaker 1
You're very welcome. And thank you and I look forward to seeing hopefully some of your products on the shelves in years to come. That'd be great.

Speaker 2
Absolutely.