Ep. 86: Enhancing natural fibres for nonwovens Ankit Podcast

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Ep. 86: Enhancing natural fibres for nonwovens

In this episode of The WTiN Podcast, we talk to Jason Finnis, executive vice president and chief innovation officer, and Caleb Beyers, brand and design manager, at Bast Fibre Technologies.

WTiN
Hello, my name is Jessica Owens, and I'm part of the team here at WTiN. And, and this is the WTiN podcast.

Join me, my colleagues and our guests every month, as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know.

In this episode, we talked to Jason Finnis. AndCaleb Beyers is from Bast Fibre Technologies. The pair talk about the company's process for purifying and enhancing bass fibres such as hemp and linen, overcoming obstacles such as continuity of supply and consistency. And they share the numerous applications that their fibres are suitable for, especially those where they can replace plastics. Hello, guys, well, it's great to finally talk to you. How are you?

Bast Fibre Technologies
Excellent. Thank you very much for having us. Yes. Thank you. We're doing very well over here. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. I mean, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I mean, it feels like we've been planning this for quite some time now. So I'm really glad that we're able to, like sit down and finally do this. Absolutely. Yeah, with with COVID. And all sorts of other interruptions. It's been a bit of a challenge to get the time, but we're happy to be here now. So Jason, you are the Executive Vice President and Chief Innovation Officer at bass fibertech. And Caleb, you were the company's brand and design manager. So for those who listening who aren't familiar with the company, do you mind starting off by telling us a bit about what you do, please? I mean, when was the company founded? Where are you based and so on? Sure. Yeah, I'm happy to do this adjacent. I'm happy to take a quick introduction. So our company started in 2016. Our head office is based here in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, so on the West Coast, and we have an office in Greenville, South Carolina. We also have a production facility in Germany, just outside of Dusseldorf and a production facility in Lumberton, North Carolina, in the US. So the company started I'm one of the cofounders of the company started, primarily because we saw an opportunity to use annually renewable crops for nonwoven products that are typically made from plastic. So the non woven industry is really quite large and encompasses everything from geo textiles to automotive parts to baby wipes and feminine hygiene, and the area of nonwovens, that we saw an opportunity and was in what we would call a single use nonwovens. that's those are products that contain or that would be used once to clean a surface, whether that surface is a baby, or whether it's a disinfecting wipe, or something like that, and then they're discarded. So that's what our company started, we recognise an opportunity there. But we also recognise that annually renewable crops outside of cotton, which is kind of an anomaly. It's used a little bit in the industry, but not much.

We're not really well suited to that industry for a number of reasons. And so we, we took our focus down to perfecting cleaning and upgrading of these fibres so that they would meet those exacting standards of the nonwoven industry. Okay, right. I mean, I'll come on to that, like the sort of like challenges and, you know, opportunities that this sort of family of fibres provides the industry but I mean, talking about these bass fibres, and I mean, could you kind of walk me through the structures of these plants and fibres and, and what makes them suitable to nonwovens and other textiles? Yeah, sure thing well, so that's fibres is a big category of plants that includes a probably the most well known would be flax or linen, then hemp, and there's jute. Basically, they're they're fast growing annual crops that produce a significant amount of biomass per hectare, they can produce up to 10 tonnes of biomass per hectare, which is far more than other fibre crops like cotton, for example. And the fibres are very long and very strong.

And typically they've been used in more industrial applications when you're looking at hemp or jute things like bags and insulation and things like that. Linen, of course, comes from flax and it's more of a textile product.

But these these crops are well suited for nonwoven applications because of their structure.

And their structure is a fibre that is hollow. It has a ribbon like structure, which means it has much more surface area than other fibres. And it has great moisture management characteristics. So, the challenges that I mentioned is that when these fibres come off the plant they're they're bound together by lignans and pectins, and all sorts of glues and contaminants that make them completely unsuitable for most nonwoven platforms. So where our company comes in, is we are the step between the primary processors, the people that are the companies in Europe or in North America, that strip the fibre from the plants. And that's the fibre that comes into our process where we clean it, we purify it, we enhance the performance if it's required. And then we send it on into the nonwoven converters that people who make the non woven fabric. So it's an interesting area for us to be in, we're not, we don't produce fabric, we don't produce wipes. But we do produce a lot of fibre. I also wanted to point out that in the plants, the fibres run the length of the stalk of the plant, unlike cotton, which kind of collects at the top in the in the flower of the plant, or what looks like the flower. So the the fibres themselves are part of the vertical rigid structure of the plant. So they so they're strong and flexible. And the job that we have in preparing them for nonwovens is to extract them from the plant and separate all the news in such a way that Jason was talking about. So there's no regeneration in creating the fibres are actually made as a fibre by nature. And it's our job to to remove them and to get them ready for for the market.

WTiN
Now, you've already mentioned that these are like, you know, annually renewable plants. So aside from that, I've also understand that they are quite a good sequester of carbon, is that right?

Bast Fibre Technologies
Yep, that is right. They do. You know, all crops that grow will sequester carbon. But hemp is particularly efficient at it. The European Union has statistics that they that they use that show, and I'm just going to make sure I don't misspeak. So pull up the actual study, because it's important to be accurate, that they will absorb about nine to 15 tonnes of carbon per hectare, which is up to twice as much as as a forest as it's growing over the lifetime of the forest. So they are very efficient at storing carbon. And while our fibres once they get to the market are not carbon negative, we certainly are working towards becoming carbon negative. And yeah, so yeah, they are they're they're just an excellent crop to be growing. Yeah, no, that's really interesting, I think because obviously cotton, as you said, that's kind of one of the better known natural fibres. But obviously, there's a lot of things wrong with cotton, it's very thirsty crop and so on. So yeah, that's really interesting characteristic, I think of this family of fibres.

WTiN
So you've already noted that there are things like hemp, linen, jute. I mean, are there actually enough of these plants being grown to support industry such as nonwovens?

Bast Fibre Technologies
Yeah, that's, you know, you're not the first person to ask us that question. As we talked to some of the big brands out there, continuity of supply is important. And you know, this nonwoven industry is based on plastic, and plastic is made 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And so our question from major brands is what happens in December when these crops aren't growing? Can we still get it? And that the answer to that is yes, absolutely. There's enough of these crops growing in Europe and North America in other other countries to supply the required need. And one of the nice things about our fibre ability is that our crops typically are grown as a dual or a triple use crop. So you know, unlike cotton, well, no, I shouldn't say that cotton is both fibre and seed. But hemp grows specifically for seeds that go into industrial applications or for human consumption. The core part of the plant, which is called herd has a lot of market opportunity in construction and animal bedding and pulp and paper and things like that. And the fibre in many cases can be a byproduct. The herd market in Europe is very, very strong. So there's a lot of farmers growing it to put it into construction and we're able to take the byproduct of that. So we're even able to take the byproduct of CBD production which is a medical supplement that is gaining favour around the world right now.

So we have a lot of application a lot of opportunity to get these crops from a number of different regions and sources. And hemp agriculture in North America is still relatively young, and has seen a lot of fluctuation in the last few years as a result of instability in the CBD market. And so for these hemp applications, to to work in synergy with one another, they all need to mature and fibre from hemp is still maturing, there's not a lot of infrastructure out there to process it. And it's, it's still very young. So we're, we're we're at the beginning of what we predict will be a huge growth for the hemp agriculture industry in North America. And of course, it's quite mature in Europe, and expected to grow there as well.

WTiN
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think I was reading a market report the other day, actually, that was, I think it was looking at hemp in particular, but it said it's actually you mentioned there, the seeds and it can also be used in like pulp and paper, but I think it was saying that it is the fibre part of it that is actually driving the market at the moment. So it sounds like there's an awful lot of opportunity here.

Bast Fibre Technologies
Yeah, there's a lot of demand. The the reports that I've been reading are saying that herd has been driving the market. So it's great to see that the demand is coming from all all sides. And that just it it's a it's a crop that is in demand, it's a profitable crop for farmers to grow. And it's an easy crop for farmers to grow, and it fits really well into their rotation. There's actually studies out there that show crops that are planted after a year of growing hemp, such as like some of the cereal crops like rye or triticale. And things like that actually do better. They produce a higher yield after after a year of hemp. So farmers like it, so there's really no no supply chain issue there. So now, when I've been on your website and done a little bit of research, you guys currently have two brands of fibres, I believe. So there's Sarah, 00, and noval. Am I pronouncing those correctly, you're very close to zero and Novell. Okay, Novell and those are those are brand names for fibre specific types. So cero relates to our premium hemp fibre and newval is linen each you know, as we're looking at the best family of plants, the fibres that come off those plants have different characteristics. So if you're looking at hemp, when you get down to fibre characteristics and properties,

hemp fibre tends to be a little bit coarser than linen, it tends to have a slightly longer ultimate fibre, linen is finer, which means it can be a little bit softer. So when we're talking to end customers, like if we're looking at making a high end, say, a cosmetic makeup remover, or something like a next to skin application, many of our customers will use Novell or they'll use a blend of Novell and and cero. And if you're looking for more of like a surface application where you're going to clean something like a table or disinfecting then then zero may have an edge.

But they can also be fairly interchangeable because the one of the things about these fibres is because they're hollow. When they when they are introduced to moisture, they they actually suck the moisture into the fibre than the moisture that the the fibre will swell like a straw. And what that does is it increases the wet handfeel of these these fibres to feel more like cloth than anything else. So while we do have two brand names, they can be somewhat interchangeably used in applications. We deliberately chose to correlate the brand names with plant types in order to develop a way of describing the products that always referred to the plants because what we do is is so wrapped up in the plants themselves because we're not taking the plant material and dissolving it and then regenerating it. We're actually taking it from the plants. We wanted to maintain that that character through the branding. So as we develop new technologies for dealing with new kinds of plants will develop new raster correlate.

WTiN
I see okay, I mean, on that note then of how you actually process these fibres. I mean, could you walk me through like the step by step process? I mean, obviously, I think you obviously have to grow it in the field. I mean, what happens as soon as it's left the field?

Bast Fibre Technologies
Sure. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. It's an agricultural crop. It's grown on the field. It's harvested by by the farmers and then those big bales of straw head to the primary processors. And so the primary processors in this industry are called Dakota caterers. And essentially, if you were to picture a tree in your in your mind, Dakota caterers would separate the bark from that tree and the tree is the analogy for these hemp stems. The bass fibres located on the outside of the stem comprises about 30% of the plant and the interior part or 70% of that plant goes off into other uses. So once the decor indicators have separated those two fibre types, we purchase the decorticated fibre which comes into our facility, and we call our facility a wet processing facility. And essentially what we do there is we load the fibres into high pressure cookers. So we they're basically like the pressure cookers, and each one of them will fit between 1002 1000 kilogrammes of fibre. And then we introduce our chemistry which is OekoTex 100 certified, and we clean and purify the fibres. It's during this step that we have the ability to add performance enhancements, we can modify the moisture management characteristics, we can make them hydrophobic or hydrophilic or more so or less. So we can make them antibacterial, we can make them fire retardant, we can dye them we can bleach them, we can basically do whatever we want at that stage. And then those fibres emerged from that tank, completely cleaned and sanitised and then dried and then they move on into our proprietary dry processing section which is essentially opening cleaning and individualising. And by cleaning I remember I'm referring to removing any trace of non fibre material. So anything that given the core part of the plant or anything that might be in there that shouldn't be we remove it and our fibres leave our facility homogenous at about a 99.8% purity. And regardless of input material, we have been able to come up with our process to homogenise the end product so that if we've got a brand buying fibre from us in January, it's going to be the same as the fibre that we shipped to them in a year even though the crops have changed at that point. And then from there are the fibres go off to the nonwoven converters who make the fabric and then they are cut and turned into wet wipe canisters or whatever type of wet wipe or wipe application they're using. And then those go off into the retail shelves that we're all familiar with.

WTiN
Right? Okay, that's so confer it's so interesting.

Bast Fibre Technologies
You know, it's it's an interesting thing too, because the nonwoven industry has been so reliant on plastic plastic fibres and plastic fibres or viscose, which we believe is a fundamental problem in the nonwoven industry is the reliance on viscose. They're all identical, those those fibres are identical to each other because they've been regenerated, they basically been dissolved and then extruded into a filament of fibre that's then cut. And for us to be able to make a fibre that runs seamlessly and without any kind of efficiency loss on the same nonwoven conversion platforms. It's quite a quite a chore. But the transition away from plastic is is something that is taking the non woman industry, the packaging industry, fashion industry by storm, because getting rid of plastic out of our wives is something everybody seems to be trying to do. And the single use plastic directive that has come out in Europe is legislation that finds and taxes plastic in these types of products. And so the nonmovant industry is is looking very seriously for natural alternatives. And our company by a bit of serendipity or maybe complete genius, I'm not sure is in the right place at the right time.

WTiN
Yeah, exactly. I mean, this idea of consistency and homogeneity is, it's a big topic, isn't it? Because it affects the final web you don't want like, I don't know, dark spots, or whatever they call them in the fabric is. And when when you're creating things like wipes, or I don't know, elsewhere in the nonwovens industry are creating things like sanitary products, which are so like, you know, they're using intimate areas of the body that you need to make sure that they're safe and they're consistent, and you can rely on these products.

Bast Fibre Technologies
Absolutely. And you know, as soon as we can't do that, or if we were not able to get over that and come up with a consistent product. We would be dead before we got out of the starting gate. It just wouldn't wouldn't work because that uniformity you refer to in the web is critical.especially you know, when you're when you're looking at textiles that said something when you're making a denim or you're turning a yarn, sometimes the SLUB that comes from the inconsistent best fibres, like linen is desirable. But when you're making a wipe, it's not those wipes have got to be uniform. And to do that, you need to have a very high quality input fibre. I mean, what about I mean, you spoke about other sort of modifications that you can do, but what about Handfield? Because my perception of things like hemp and linen is that they're quite scratchy. They're a bit rough. Like, I can't imagine a wipe made from them. So was that quite a challenge for you guys? Yeah, you know, maybe maybe the biggest challenge there is perception. Because yeah, you know, a lot of people will think of hemp or jute and think, yeah, you know what, that's a good fibre for burlap sack, but I'm not going to put that anywhere near my babies, but that that is a perception that is instantly changed. Once a customer or person will feel one of our hemp wipes. Like I said, the fibre structure allows them to absorb a nice amount of liquid. And when they do that they swell.

So where you may have like a disinfecting wipe that feels like a plastic bag, the hemp wipes feel like a piece of cloth. So it is very soft. We have had a lot of very pleasantly surprised nonwoven converters, who are like, Oh my god, I had no idea that it's going to feel this nice. So it's actually it feels a little bit more luxurious than a typical wipe, because it feels like fabric.

And speaking of perception, one of the things that surprised us the most in the market is showing customers and interested parties, the natural coloured fibre that we have, after it's made into a white, so it looks almost like brown paper, which is kind of what you might expect from him. If if you're not aware of how finally it can be processed.

Bast Fibre Technologies
And so it looks brown, which is unfamiliar, and then the nonwovens industry and then when you touch it, it's it's it feels like silk, it's incredibly soft, it's even more soften than the the bleached fibre or the the way the totally clean fire. So there are perceptions that are changing. We've had incredible feedback, positive feedback on on that natural fibre, in spite of the fact that we were really reluctant to even show it in the nonwoven industry because it has the appearance of not being clean or pure.

So I think there are consumer desires that are changing around what's expected out of out of whites and what's expected out of natural products.

WTiN
Yeah, that's really encouraging to hear. Because I think I've probably mentioned so many times on this podcast in all different sectors. But a lot when it comes to sustainability. Consumers are all for it. And as long as it performs just as well as whatever the conventional product was before. So if you can master things like handfeel, and you know how it fits into the supply chain even and all these little things, then well, people should only be willing to, you know, change to these alternatives.

Bast Fibre Technologies
Absolutely. And you know that that is a really interesting point, because that's, that's the reason we chose nonwovens because so many times as consumers were asked to make an environmental choice, but like you just said, that's usually at the cost of performance, use this eco oven cleaner, but it's not going to work as well, but at least it's eco.

But for our products, because of that moisture handling and the wet strength and all the various things, we actually can produce a white that performs as well or better than the incumbent fabrics, which is a unique area for nonwovens. Because you know, when you put hemp into textiles, there's not a lot of advantages that come you get a sustainability kick to it. And there's no performance disadvantage, but there's no real like consumer benefit that they can see other than feeling good about their choice. But that is not this not the case when you have these best fibres in wipes, they can they absorb moisture faster, they absorb more of it, they have a better hand feel. They have better moisture release, which means that when you're cleaning a surface with a wet wipe, a little bit of pressure on the white means that the liquid comes out, cleans the surface and then is quickly absorbed. So there's a number of advantages to using this in a nonwoven application.

WTiN
Now another thing I wanted to ask you guys today was about biodegradability. I think people I think I'm right in saying that natural fibres bass fibres are naturally biodegradable Is that Is that correct?

Bast Fibre Technologies
Yeah, that is correct. And unfortunately, we can't just rest on the fact that we expect the nor they are being because they're natural, and there they grow. But we have had them tested. And so we have certification for compostability in both water and soil.

WTiN
Okay. Now what I wanted to ask is because to me until perhaps last week, actually, I thought if something's biodegradable, that is a good thing. But I read a positioning statement by the microfiber Consortium, which I think start in here in the UK, I'm not sure if you've heard of it or not, but they're trying to, you know, well tackle the problem of microfibers. And they're on the fence about biodegradability. They said, it's actually they're not saying it is a solution to microfiber pollution. And I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that.

Bast Fibre Technologies
I agree. I agree 100%. With that biodegradability and composability are two different things. biodegradability just means that something will break into smaller pieces. So you can say that over time of piece of plastic is going to be biodegradable, because it will turn into very, very small pieces. But that is the problem. That's the problem of microplastics and microplastic. contamination in the water. compostability means that it returns back to soil, it can come compost turns, it's like putting a banana peel into the ground, it just turns back into dirt and supports the next year's crops. So yeah, we are very much compostable. We will get certifications that say we're biodegradable, which in our case is also good, but you know you have we have to be very careful. And there's a lot of greenwashing going on out there. As far as you know, eco products. There's quite a bit.

WTiN
Okay, right. Interesting. Now, so far in this podcast, obviously, we've we've spoken about nonwovens, because that's what you guys focus on, and specifically wipes. But I mean, are there any other applications either in nonwovens? Or, you know, you know, further afield that you would be interested in exploring?

Bast Fibre Technologies
So you're for sure, no question about it. nonwovens, like I said, at the beginning is a very broad category. And we have a lot of applications. In basically, we've been talking about wipes, which are produced through a hydro entangling. So they're basically fibres that are entangled with high pressure water jets. But if you replace those water jets with needles, and you turn it into a needle punched fabric, you end up with a non woven structure that's more like felt. And that felt has a lot of applications that we're exploring right now. And in, even in textile applications, like footwear and insolate have layers. But also by turning these into a needle punch of fabric, we have more durable applications, which means like for cleaning the dishes in your sink in your kitchen, using a non woven needle punched fabric for that, out of our fibres, they can be laundered several times used until they're of no more use and then put into the compost bin. There's that area there's in green building using it as acoustic insulation. So at office dividers, or in rugs or things like that, that are that are designed to manage acoustics. There's that there's Yeah, really there's there's all sorts of applications. And then of course, there's also spun yarn, and spun yarn is something that we have a side interest in and that we are developing as well.

WTiN
So a tonne of opportunities and for for you guys. So hopefully you've got quite a fruitful future. And I think another really cool thing I saw actually this week is a couple of startups now have started working on hemp, tampons, and sanitary pads. And I thought that was bizarre. But I mean, from what you guys have told me about the structure of these fibres, and like how you can modify them that that just doesn't seem out of the question to me anymore. So that's perhaps another one.

Bast Fibre Technologies
No, it's not we're actually we're supporting many of those companies with fibre right now in their developments. And you know, those those types of products have multiple layers. And what we're finding is that our nonwovens structures are very good in an acquisition distribution layer at layer. They are very absorbent, so they're good as an absorbent core. So that would be for feminine hygiene. It could also be for diapers or incontinence, you know, all of these types of products and they're so reliant on plastic, that by transitioning here, we really are able to improve the environmental footprint of those products.

WTiN
Right. Okay. So I mean, considering you know, how much opportunity there is to use bass fibres and to replace synthetics with them. How come more industries aren't doing this? I mean, what's been holding back the industry until now?

Bast Fibre Technologies
Oh, well, the industry speaking from nonwovens. The reputation of vast fibres within the industry has been dirty, inconsistent and difficult to process. And it has really kept these fibres from being used, you can look pretty much back in the last 2030 years, and there's been zero kilogrammes of these fibres used in the nonwoven industry. So what has been weighed, or what the industry has been waiting on is a company like ours to come out and solve these technical challenges. And when I give, when I give presentations at conferences, I've got a slide that lists it probably has 30 or 40 of the technical challenges that we had to overcome, to be able to make these fibres suitable. Everything from fibre length to the smell, to the colour to microbial contamination, you know, you name it, it was a problem. So now that those are solved, I think the the biggest thing that we have to prove to our customers is that we can supply year, month after month, year after year continuity of supply, and that we can support these increases in demand. Because if you look at Europe alone, transitioning from plastic to natural fibre in just a small handful of these products is over 3 million metric tonnes per year, which eclipses the amount of bass fibres that are currently grown. So if we look at our growth plan over the next five years or so as we start to double and triple the capacity of our production facilities, we have got to be able to show to our customers that we're a reliable supplier. And so far, we're doing that and we just need to continue, you brought it up earlier when you talked about your perception of hemp and flax being scratchy and, and sort of not fit for being next to skin or anything like that. And when you see the fibre that comes out of our process, I think most lay people would have difficulty distinguishing it from cotton.

It looks incredibly clean and consistent. And when we show it to engineers, and technical people in the nonwovens industry, they react with disbelief, most of the time, they kind of can't wrap their heads around the fact that that hemp has been able to be processed down to such a fine, consistent, end product. So we're just working on changing that reputation within the industry first, and then going out and sharing it with the broader public and saying, hey, hey, these products that you know of that are made from plastic fibres and cotton, they can be made from from hemp. And they can be just as good looking and just as high performing.

WTiN
Right. And I bet that's been quite interesting, because I know the company is exhibited at a few shows actually in person recently. So I bet it's been quite interesting to actually show customers and get these, you know, reactions from them.

Bast Fibre Technologies
Yeah, those wild moments are pretty rewarding. And we have a conference coming up at the end of June in tickets in Chicago, Illinois. And it's an industry, big Industry, Trade Show and conference. And we've actually been nominated as one of the three finalists for an Innovation Award. So we're being recognised by the industry is kind of leading leading the charge here. So hopefully, hopefully, we win that. I also think it's very funny that, that this fibre that's been used for 10s of 1000s of years by people is now being considered an innovation. Ya know, as if it's taken this long for a company like yours to come along and actually overcome these technical abilities. It's actually quite exciting, I think because if you're managing to do that with hemp, imagine what other companies could do with other fibres. And perhaps it actually is really achievable to get rid of plastics. I mean, I don't know if I'm just being way too optimistic here. But yeah, well, you know, I think plastics and plastic will be difficult to replace for sure. But I think, you know, looking at single use items like these, it's just it just does not seem right to be polluting the landfill and the waterways and the sewer systems dispose, especially in the UK, that's been such a big problem. With these plastic wipes, it just is unnecessary. We should also talk about how the shift away from plastics is creating demands on other materials and resources, specifically trees, because a lot of these products that are made out of plastic, not just in the non woven industry, but across all industries because there's plastic everywhere. As as we've as a society phase those out, we need to find other materials that can can play the same role in our lives and create the same product.

And often that roll goes to trees, and there simply isn't enough tree material.

There aren't enough trees on the planet to do, to facilitate the transition, and also trees, we only have so many of them left and the ones that are old growth, the old growth forests that we have left play a very significant role in, in maintaining the the atmosphere, the climate, the the livability of our planet. So part of our mission is to protect the existing old growth forests and to create alternatives to preserve the managed forests that we have.

WTiN
Yes, I've always wondered when people talk about, you know, promoting like cellulose from regenerated forests or forests that have been looked after in a specific good way. And I've always thought I just don't understand how they're doing it because trees take like decades to get to a decent size. And you can't just chop a tonne down and expect them to suddenly sprout up at that quality again, so yeah, there's, I completely get where you're coming from. Yeah.

So I mean, taking into account everything we've we've talked about today. And the final question I want to ask you guys is I mean, where do you think the bass fibre industry will be in say, the next perhaps five to 10 years?

Bast Fibre Technologies
Yeah, well, I think that we're going to see a fairly good growth perspective for it or prospect.

As far as a processor, best fibre technologies, we are they the facilities that we've acquired, we are getting ready to expand their capacity doubling and tripling their capacity over the next four years, that we were also signing contracts with bass fibre growers and primary processors so that we can support the industry from the farmer up. And I think as you see us to get through this next probably eight month period, where we're in the final development stage with some very, very large global brands, you're going to start to see these products on the on the shelf.

And your consumer, I think consumer adoption of these is going to be fairly quick, they're gonna find the performance of them and the feel of them are better than they could have expected and better than what we've replaced. So I think the future is quite bright. And, you know, there's bass fibres being used in all sorts of different industries, from construction to paper, to textiles. So I think that this is a, you know, it's an ancient fibre that's enjoying a bit of a renaissance. I think that our job as a company, or a big part of our job will be educating consumers, once our products are out there in the market, and working with the companies that are using our fibre to create products to help customers figure out how to find our products, and also how to question and understand what the products they're buying are made from Because currently, there's there are very few labelling requirements for REITs. And so it's hard to know what they're made out of. So the goal for us is to to have our logo on the packages. That contain our fibre, and have people seeking out that logo and knowing that it represents a quality product that that has a excellent environmental footprint.

WTiN
Well, I mean, I have a lot of faith in you guys, I have more faith in you guys in the nonwovens industry than I do in the fashion industry. I feel like I mean No offence to everyone in the fashion industry listening but I feel like the more you finish, just have their heads switched on. And every ducks just seemed to be more in a row than they are in fashion. I don't know about you what you guys think. But that's my perception.

Bast Fibre Technologies
Yeah. I hear you on that. And I think the nonwoven industry is so much more reliant on single use products, that the this push with the single use plastic directive is really hitting them first. But you know, I've seen tree to fibre. I think it's an Ikea initiative. There's there's a lot of work out there to replace synthetics and fashion as well. So but you're right might take a little longer.

WTiN
Yeah, time will tell I suppose.

Bast Fibre Technologies
Yeah.

WTiN
Well, I mean, I think that's all we've got time for today, unfortunately. But I mean, thank you to you both for coming on the show. I mean, we haven't really covered nonwovens or natural fibres much on the podcast recently. So it's been really great to hear what you guys have had to say and what you're up to. So thank you very much.

Bast Fibre Technologies
Excellent. Well, yeah, thank you very much for the opportunity. And we're happy to come back and share some of our progress with with you as as we go down the line here, and we appreciate it very much. Thank you.