Exploring the road to zero carbon Ankit Fireside Chat

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Exploring the road to zero carbon

Carbon capture and carbon neutrality are topics of increasing importance as the climate continues to suffer as a result of carbon emissions. The textile & apparel industry plays a huge role in this. WTiN is exploring new and upcoming technologies, industry players and challenges around the future of commercial viability of CO2 fibres and yarns, as well as the manufacturing technology that surrounds this.

In this Fireside Chat, Dr Ashley Holding, principal consultant, Circuvate, discusses the misconceptions of carbon capture and carbon neutrality, assesses key innovations and investments, and looks into the challenges the textile & apparel industry may face on the road to complete carbon neutrality.

hi everyone and welcome to this fireside
chat with me Madelaine Thomas content
lead here at the World Textile
Information Network
joining me today is a special guest Dr
Ashley Holding welcome
hi thank you it's nice to be here
so after holding is a regular WTN
contributor um he is the founder and
principal consultant of consultancy
company circuit with over 10 years of
experience he has got deep expertise in
sustainable and circular materials
recycling Technologies and life cycle
assessment he advises Brands startup
suppliers and other consulting firms on
all topics where his expertise is
required including on issues surrounding
carbon neutrality
so with Dr Holden we recently published
a report called apparel from Air making
synthetic materials from greenhouse
gases if you haven't read this then do
please log on to wtn.com and do so as
it's a really insightful uh report
so carbon neutrality and carbon capture
are topics of increasing importance as
the climate continues to suffer as a
result of carbon emissions and the
textile industry you know plays a huge
role in this and wtin is currently
exploring the Technologies players and
challenges around the future commercial
viability of CO2 derived fibers and jams
and indeed the Manufacturing
Technologies around this as well
and we're doing this both on our wtn.com
platform and at our virtual conference
next month in event zero carbon so if
you are interested in this event and
finding out more about the topics we'll
be discussing in this fireside chat and
do let us know through the link provided
so with all that out the way and
actually we will get started if that's
okay
sounds good
so first of all for anyone that isn't
aware can you just give I guess a basic
rundown of carbon capture and carbon
neutrality
absolutely yes I mean copy capture of
course is is what it sounds like it's
about capturing carbon from the
atmosphere and there's really two ways
you can think about this one is is
actually direct air captures so taking
carbon emissions from the air itself
which is actually quite a difficult task
I can talk a bit about that soon
um but also for example capturing it
from the emissions which are going
directly from heavy manufacturing so
actually on the flus on the chimneys of
plants as well so that's another way you
can possibly do that but actually the
second thing I would draw attention to
is the idea of carbon capture and
utilization so that's actually
utilize it in the carbon that you
capture from the air from the emissions
from factories in materials especially
polymers which you could use to make
synthetic fibers for example or things
like Foams for Footwear or Hardware
basically anywhere you use Plastics or
synthetics as that's one potential area
um so that's the carbon capture or
carbon capture and utilization side the
other side is carbon neutrality so I
think this is a more uh wider
encompassing area which would include
your carbon reduction efforts since
Supply Chain Looking to sustainable
materials bio-based materials
carbon-based materials as well would be
included in this but usually that's
combined with some sort of offsetting so
maybe a brand does these things but they
might also use carbon offsetting to sort
of set the balance to to zero
essentially so that's that's one way of
doing it okay and what would you say are
the the critical misconceptions in the
in the industry around these key topics
so taking the the carbon capture and
utilization point of view so actually
using carbon emissions in in polymers in
materials and fibers I think one of the
biggest misconceptions is that this
would necessarily result in carbon
neutrality or carbon negativity just by
doing this so I think that's probably
the biggest misconception so it's not
necessarily the case so I think the main
thing I'd draw attention to is that
these processes still use energy the
energy is often sourced and fossil fuels
in the first place or at least some part
of it is depending on where you are in
the world that can be different
um and sometimes these processes of
turning carbon emissions into materials
and polymers it has many steps Each of
which needs energy Each of which means
something in theory generate emissions
um often through the energy issues but
maybe also directly as well
um so it can be quite complex it's not
necessarily as simple as turning the
carbon directly into a material so
there's many steps in there and it could
actually be better or worse in terms of
carbon or environmental impact compared
to the Baseline which could be
petroleum-based polymer or material
could be a bio-based material as well so
it really depends you have to take it on
a case-by-case basis so you can't say
that every carbon capture based material
is carbon negative or even carbon
neutral I think that's very key so the
other misconception I think is the kind
of the actual content a material might
contain so in the report we talk about
for example carbon emission based
polyester and other polymers
um so in theory you know you have
different molecular building blocks you
use to create these polymers to create
the fibers in many cases only one of
these which is actually based on the
carbon emissions so the other weight
content essentially of the end polymer
would be needed to be Source from fossil
based resources essentially so actually
when you're looking the final product
and sometimes also because the output of
these kind of polymers and materials is
quite small compared to the traditional
fossil based output for example they
might then mix that in with a larger
amount of the fossil base so actually
depending on the case the actual carbon
emission content of the final material
could in theory could be quite low
depending on exactly how it formulated
it but then I think the last
misconception is or maybe kind of
misunderstanding is is the way you know
Carbon offsetting and carbon neutrality
works so
um of course many brands are looking
into this carbon offsetting to help them
get to your carbon neutral State there's
many certifications around this of
course as well
um but I think it's also important to
recognize that the carbon accounting is
not necessarily
um 100 accurate you know there's
sensitivities there which could mean the
actual measured carbon emissions might
be lower higher than they've really
accounted for so of course you can you
can do carbon offsetting to try and get
to a somewhat carbon neutral standpoint
but you need to recognize that
um you shouldn't be doing the heavy
lifting with this essentially so it's
better to overcompensate with that but
you know
um just saying your carbon neutral based
on this is a bit tricky so it should be
other efforts in the supply chain as
well alongside that
I see do you think that it's become a
little bit of a A buzzword or a way to
greenwash almost talking about carbon
neutrality and how do we then I guess in
improve the accuracy of that cabin
accounting as you called it
um yeah I mean definitely yeah I guess
it is a buzzword
um and I think it's it's it is of course
a desirable endpoint to be called
neutral carbon negative I think it's
unlikely to be truly called negative but
uh neutral you know and I think there'll
always be some space for offsetting to
kind of you know take it to zero in a
session to the neutrality I mean the
little bit that's remaining
um but it shouldn't be doing the kind of
majority of the the lifting there so
um I think I would say it's a desirable
endpoint there's many certifications
which are very reputable in in that
space
um but again I would mention you just
even just switching the materials to
more sustainable ones wouldn't get you
that much of the way to to be in common
neutral so I mean quite a lot of carbon
neutral you know Brands materials
depending on which level you want to
look at it
um I think a lot of the the kind of
majority that's going to be offsetting
the time being right I see and what
would what are the key Innovations in
terms of carbon capture in the textile
and apparel industry
so there were a few buckets of
technologies that I'd probably draw upon
the first is what I would call the
chemical conversion strategies and
actually a lot of this is um some are
based on lateral chemicals or using
electricity to to do chemical reactions
uh on carbon from the atmosphere carbon
dioxide sometimes carbon monoxide as
well
um so this is sort of chemical pathway
of making molecular building blocks for
polymers from carbon emissions
second one is similar but is what I
would say is a biochemical pathway so
essentially using bacterias
microorganisms essentially to which
would feed on carbon emissions and then
produce for example ethanol so it's like
a fermentation process which you could
then do a series of chemical reactions
on to make a polymer essentially so
that's the other pathway and then the
third technology bucket is similar to
that pathway into this it's a
biochemical approach but actually you're
directly producing polymers from a
bacteria so this a range of polymers
called phas
polyhydroxylconoids and they are kind of
a new area you know they've been around
for decades but actually these bacteria
they essentially eat you know they can
eat methane for example and they will
produce polymers directly so you don't
need this intermediate chemical
processing steps so that's the third
bucket and then maybe the overarching
Technology Group would be carbon capture
Technologies in general
um I would say it's less relevant for
the textiles and fashion sector but you
know that's kind of feeding in to the
whole industry in terms of where the
carbon actually comes from and what kind
of investment is required for these
types of Technologies to be successfully
implemented do you think that this is
possible in the current landscape
because then obviously we're trying to
forge ahead with sustainability but
there's a lot of challenges out there at
the moment of course yeah I mean this is
obviously a big challenge especially for
smaller innovators you know some of
these Technologies are coming from
startup companies spin out of
universities you know they have a long
road ahead of them time wise you know it
could be 10 years more before they scale
of the Technologies but also money-wise
you know they need
um a lot of money yeah this I'm talking
about hundreds of millions of dollars
maybe if you're talking about many
different Technologies but even for one
technology you're going right to a stage
where you're fully scaled up you know
you're talking about large chemical
plants and things these are expensive
right so it requires a lot of
Investments so it comes from Brands some
of it come from other supply chain
players you know it could be uh chemical
companies themselves people who make
polymers fibers there's a lot of people
he could potentially invest when we're
talking about the whole industry and the
scale of change which is needed you know
we're talking billions and billions of
dollars
across all Technologies and
interventions I would say so yeah
there's a lot of a lot of investment
needed
um of course there's a lot of
opportunities as well with these new
materials and categories and materials
so that this kind of balances out
challenges when
um carbon capture in the in the industry
so I think that you know the what I've
mentioned before in terms of carbon
capture yes you can take it directly
from the air but actually that's
something
um which is pretty difficult at the
moment in terms of economic viability
technical viability there's a lot of
people working on that you know how to
actually directly remove carbon from the
atmosphere for example you might have
seen images there's a plant in Iceland I
believe where you can see it it's
relatively small scale it looks quite
big but in terms of fraction of the
total atmosphere and the carbon there
and the amount which will be needed to
remove from the atmosphere is relatively
small so
um direct air removing carbon from the
areas is still pretty small scale still
pretty nascent so it's you know it's
quite difficult at the moment there are
Technologies for moving the carbon as I
mentioned from the flu stacks of heavy
industry from power plants things like
that steel mills is another big one
where there's a lot of emissions
um so that's a bit more viable and you
know that's already happening
um of course there is a carbon dioxide
industry right you can carbon dioxide is
used for a lot of things as an
industrial solvent for dry cleaning for
removing caffeine from coffee beans so
it's used industrial already so that can
be used as a source for making polymers
um so these things are already sort of
viable it's more the direct capture from
the air removing carbon from the air
which is it was a technical and economic
challenge
um the other key area I think is
actually the environmental impact and I
think this is quite key is that we
haven't really at least I haven't seen
much studies especially of some of the
new developed Technologies which prove
the environmental impact compared to
let's say fossil based or bio-based
materials so I think that's key so
really rigorous life cycle assessment
studies which um explain the carbon and
other environmental impacts like I said
I mentioned you it could be better or
worse unless we have this evidence we
don't know so I think that's also really
important
okay so you said that there's not one
that you're aware of that's been working
at the moment so you think that that's
needed for the industry
yeah I mean some some do there are some
academic papers on certain Technologies
but I think especially for younger stage
companies you know it's just beyond
their resources to have that kind of
data but there are of course also some
bigger companies doing carbon-based
polymers for example for Foams and for
hardware and other things like that and
for fibers
um so and some of those that is a bit
lacking as well so I think you know
depends on what the results are some it
may not be necessarily positive when
compared to buyer-based or even
sometimes fossil based materials which
would be a shame but
um if there's actually more steps and
more energy uh required to make the
thing in the first place than these
other materials then you know you could
see how that could end up being worse
and where's the drive for
um the these Innovations coming from is
it coming from a gascon consumers who
are now more sustainably aware if they
you know think that these these
Technologies are better is it the brands
that having these pressures on them or
you know
non-governmental organizations
governmental organizations
yeah so I mean at least in my opinion it
does seem to be we have of course at
least some proportion of eco-conscious
consumers you know and the brands who
want to Target them but I think also
more generally like it's seen as it's
almost a long term
strategic play to invest in Innovation
sustainability
um you know novel materials that Brands
want to differentiate themselves like
who has the kind of most novel most
sustainable materials so I think that
drives a lot of it this kind of
competitive aspect as well and I think
also importantly the people who make up
these companies the staff the employees
are also interested in driving these
sustainable visions and trying to get to
carbon neutrality and things like that
as well so I think that's also an
important point and do you see carbon
neutrality being commercially viable in
the textile industry
I would say generally I don't see why
not you know there's obviously a long
way to go
um there are plenty of more sustainable
materials you know
um depending on how you define that
um for example there are quite a few CO2
based polymers on the market like
polyurethanes and polycarbonates are two
options still producing a relatively
small scale but you know they are
produced um you can you can buy them on
the market essentially
um so yes some technologies will be able
to be commercially viable you know they
can commercialize themselves but it'll
also be losers people who run into
problems especially you know when the
companies now are quite small they don't
necessarily know how the cost will scale
for example when they create a big
Factory so there will be some winners
and some losers some who will have a
commercial Bible models some who won't
but in general for the whole industry I
I don't see why not there will be
investment needed as I mentioned that
can also bring opportunities for the
investors as well so
um yeah I would say it's still a while
off for True carbon neutrality but I
think it's definitely valuable well well
that's good news so what can play is
because you know we've got such a a huge
and long and complex um supply chain in
the textile industry but what can
players all along the value chain you
know and the textile manufacturers the
Machinery developers Etc and what can
they all do to reduce their carbon
emissions and where can the greatest
gains be made and for these different
players along the value chain and that
are looking to reduce their carbon
emissions and what would you say are the
most cost effective changes because
those are the ones that people would be
looking to make first right
yeah that's a really good question
actually there's this uh we've been
talking about materials as you know most
of this this q a but actually this is
really only a portion of the Comfort
print of a whole supply chain so yes
it's important to switch to more
sustainable materials materials which
are bio-based recycled for example in
this case even carbon-based materials
might have a slightly lower Quantum
impact in some cases depending on which
material you're going for so yeah that's
important but actually that I think the
wider point is actually the the use of
renewable energy in the supply chain so
all the suppliers going back as far as
you can you know
um are currently mostly based in
countries where the fossil fuel usage is
quite high so direct investments in
boosting fossil uh fuel phase out in
these countries replacement with
renewable energy or even direct use of
renewable energy on site with you know
solar panels uh windmills things like
that
um the other key thing is when direct
energy is used or things like boilers
using web processing often they're based
on coal you know dirty sort of emissions
like that you know switching to gas
bottles is better but even better
electricity Renewables things like that
so it's phasing out of of fossil fuels
in the supply chain and and um direct
heating with with inefficient boilers
and things like that it's surprisingly a
large amount of the carbon impact but
just generally cutting out as many
stages as possible things like wet
processing exactly is one example I've
used here but
um there are others but trying to do as
little as possible you know doing
solution dying instead of doing a
separate wet dying stage or dope dying
as it's called would be cutting out like
a wet processing stage so these kind of
interventions they would all add up
um of course there's also the consumer
use angle which is kind of a bit
difficult for Brands to influence but of
course that's if you're thinking about
the whole life cycle that's also
important you know washing clothes at
lower temperature could be one example
of this
um so there is a lot there's a lot of
interventions but I think the biggest
impact would be for Brands especially as
consortiums you know to invest in the
countries themselves and the factories
to switch to to Renewables I think and I
think that
that
happen a little bit quicker um as the
demand for is so much higher now because
of the ongoing energy crisis
particularly in in Europe you know I was
visiting some factories in in Italy a
few weeks ago that were saying that
their costs have gone up by 10 times or
by six six times for example so
um I think it's not sustainable for them
as a business to continue with with
fossil fuels yeah absolutely I think
there's definitely all the benefits and
um I think it's something that Brands
need to to coordinate with their
supplies of course people share share
many suppliers and uh I think it's
something that needs some investment of
course some of these small suppliers
producers in some of these developing
regions don't necessarily have the funds
to do this themselves and I think there
are positive moves in that direction
I've seen some consortiums which have
been formed to invest in in that sort of
thing so it's moving the right direction
as you mentioned is definitely what the
benefits coming just other than the
environmental point of view as well yeah
exactly and I think what's important is
that the
um I guess the the advice that you've
mentioned in terms of
um trying to move away from fossil fuels
and
um eliminating wet processes and moving
to more dry processing processing
um you know in terms of dying and
finishing for example that technology is
all already commercially available it's
all out there for us to invest in if we
have that investment and so I think
that's an important message
um to put across yeah absolutely so
we've talked about these really
Innovative Technologies you know these
kind of new materials groundbreaking you
know inclusion of carbon carbon dioxide
methane into materials but actually as
you mentioned
the Technologies exist you know
Renewable Energy Technologies this uh
that as you said Dry processing
Technologies
um some of these Technologies exist they
just need to be implemented and invested
upon so that's already have a large
chunk of progress towards you know
becoming carbon neutral or reducing your
carbon budget in addition to these
sustainable materials so they're all
important but you need to work on every
step of that value chain at the same
time exactly oh so I guess to finish off
though what do you see for the future of
carbon neutrality our carbon capture in
the textile and a power space
yeah that's a good question I think yeah
we need to move away from the idea
there's going to be a one-size-fits-all
approach for everything you know there's
going to be many materials many
different feed stocks which will be
relevant for different applications and
some will be you know commercialized
some worn and there'll be a mixture of
things I think in the future so my
personal opinion and there's other
others who are you know proposing
similar viewpoints is that there will be
a mixture of bio-based recycled and
carbon-based feedstocks in the future so
any mixture of these and depending on
what the actual application is you'll
probably see different things so
sometimes it might be a bio-based
material
the bio-based polyester for example
instead of carbon based depending on
actually what the true sustainability
benefits are what you know the economic
conditions are which ones you know more
cost effective as well so we'll see
different things in different categories
uh be commercialized I think but I think
the general trend is moving away from
fossil fuels moving towards a mixture of
different feedstocks including the
Recycled buyer-based and carbon emission
based which in theory you could consider
a form of recycling but I think it's
often seen as a separate category so I
think that's what we'll see
um like for example you could see as I
mentioned some of these carbon-based
polymers they have some fossil based
content so for example combining
carbon-based or carbon emission based
polymers and fibers with biobase so you
can have a mixture of bio-based and
carbon based in one product for example
um so I think that's the direction it
will generally be moving it would
obviously take a while to get there
um again you know there will still be
spaces for things like offsetting but I
would hope that the things that we've
mentioned a bit following sustainable
materials but actually these carbon
reduction real carbon reduction efforts
in the supply chain would be the way to
go so I think that's how it would be
heading
um I think generally you know moving
towards the natural processes to make
these materials as well so is this
bio-based biochemical approaches
um some will be better than others and
it just depends on actually how these
are designed and scaled up in the future
yeah when you sorry I know I said last
question but you're really interested
and when you talk about the direction
that we're going in and you said it will
take a while to get there what kind of
time frames do you think that we're
we're looking to art
yeah that's that's also yeah obviously a
very good question I think I push upon
that I mean my opinion will be decades
how many I can't say but of course solo
brands have said
um very ambitious targets 20 25 2030. of
course model the climate sciences that
we need to be doing pretty big action
before then so
as I mentioned you know these kind of
supply chain interventions with
renewable energy and more efficient
machinery and things like that and
cutting out web processing these all
things which could in theory be done if
the investment was there relatively
quickly I think
um the materials development and novel
Technologies can take time and I can
sometimes take decades you know
um there's often technical roadblocks
along the way there's a lot of kind of
backwards and forwards in terms of
development you know sometimes you
discover things it takes you a bit
further back in in the development so
um that could take DEC it could be two
decades for example if let's say a
company today was to develop a new kind
of polymer with with carbon dioxide so
it could be a while before that would
actually be commercialized depending on
the level of support it gets
um but it's definitely a lot of things
which can be done in the next five to
ten years which would speed things up a
lot so um
just depends but I would say generally
for the whole system to change and we
you know we're looking into a future
scenario you know let's say 2050 is an
example that you know we'll be looking
at them before all these things are
implemented and we have completely new
range of materials uh which are more
sustainable so it will take time for
sure well we'll finish it there
so much Ashley
as well thank you so
um yeah it's been great to kind of pick
your brains on this really fascinating
topic that I hope we will continue to
explore um to improve the industry's cabin
emitual credentials and help move the
industry forward
so thank you again Ashley and thank you
for listening everyone and again for
anyone interested in finding finding
more about our innovate zero carbon
virtual conference then do get in touch
or click the link provided until next
time thank you
thank you