Supply Chain Collaboration Solving for Innovation and Certification Panel Discussion

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Supply Chain Collaboration Solving for Innovation and Certification Panel Discussion

This discussion will provide insights on best practices, challenges, and real-world examples of companies that have leveraged collaboration to drive both innovation and certification, ensuring long-term success in an increasingly competitive global marketplace.

Speaker 1
Hi everybody, thanks for coming. We're going to talk about supply chain collaboration today, solving for innovation and certification. Today's panel is sponsored by WTIN. WTIN is a provider of innovation information to the textile and apparel industry, encompassing material innovation, technology innovation, product innovation and business strategy. I'm going to introduce our panel. I'm going to start with Ben Meade on the end here. He's managing director of Hohenstein Institute America. He's the liaison between industry collaborators, government agencies and trade associations, and leads a team spread over North America and Latin America. He also oversees Otis responsibilities for the US and prior to joining the firm in 2014 he consulted for brands and industry associations. Next I have Alan Cohn, SVP and cmo for Noble Biomaterials. After starting in the energy and ski industries, Allen and his family moved to Massachusetts in 22,006 where he worked for Malden mills and polar tech as their global marketing director. In 2014 he went to work for Vibram. And in 2020 he joined noble as their CMO. And this year he became SVP of the ionic plus division. Next I have Elizabeth Rogers, president of s group. She brings over 20 years of leadership in transforming global supply chains, driving innovation and implementing sustainable practices in the performance apparel industry. Next I have Eric Shanker, CEO of Coolcore. He has over two decades of experience in performance fabrics, having led the Scandinavian endurance brand craft sportswear, he now channels his consumer brand expertise as CEO of Coolcore, an ingredient brand offering chemical free and sustainable cooling fabrics. And last I have Greg Buie, an advisor to Helos. He has 34 years of experience in footwear and apparel, 30 of which were at Nike and global manufacturing innovation, product and supplying chain roles. Most recently, he helped architect the made in Old Town initiative. So we're going to talk a little bit today about the rapidly evolving marketplace where material supply chains are no longer just a means of delivering goods, they're the drivers of innovation and key enablers for maintaining compliance to complex regulatory standards. This panel is going to explore strategic collaboration across the supply chain that can foster innovation and certification, ensuring that businesses stay competitive while also meeting standards for sustainability, safety and quality, which is a lot so while product development may be where innovation was developed in the past, today, the supply chain is bringing a lot of developments to the table. Suppliers are providing full service, full service solutions to clients in quick and sustainable ways. So when an end user wants a t shirt that's cooling, anti microbial and UPF rated, having that technology ready, certified and valuable quickly and be new and different is beneficial to everyone. So with that, Alan, can you tell me a little bit about how you're collaborating with cool, core and other suppliers and stakeholders to innovate and add value?

Speaker 2
Yeah, I think for us, we are. We're a classic ingredient technology. So when we bring one benefit to market, we bring an anti microbial solution, and that's that's great for the vast majority of the products that are out there. It does a benefit. It's a material preservative. It keeps fabrics working longer. It keeps fabrics and and apparel in. Market longer. So it's really a sustainability mechanism built in. However, the market has a constant interest in getting products that have multi benefits. So it in a way where we can provide one benefit by by way of collaboration, working with a cooling company, like cool core, or working with a UPF. So your example was, make a t shirt, but build in those functions. And typically, as a supplier, we would provide our brand, our customer, with one benefit. Now we're able through collaboration. We can collaborate with an e di we can collaborate with a cool core and bring multi benefit solutions to a product. So it cuts down on lead time. It cuts down on it cut it cuts down on the amount of time needed to develop a product. So we're it's a rapid way of innovating product by just collaborating with already outstanding companies that are already in our industry.

Speaker 1
Eric as CEO of cool core, how are you partnering partnering with other suppliers and customers to accelerate innovation?

Speaker 3
Yeah, so it's a I think what Alan said for me is it's that by collaborating with folks like noble, we're a force multiplier, right? So we can two, two plus two equals five. In this case, if we're working with the S group, one less person that they might have to deal with as well, unless you want to deal with lots and lots of different, different folks. So our job as a supplier is to solve pain, and if there's multiple pains as part of that, which is, we're looking for UPF, we're looking for cooling, we're looking for antimicrobial, we can do that. And so we're trying to solve pain and help brands utilize us for innovation ideas, and so we become, try to become more of a strategic partner with those brands than a transactional one. So that's why these collaborations are, are so exciting.

Speaker 1
Um, Ben, when it comes to standards and testing, how do you go about working with suppliers to meet all the demands that they have.

Speaker 4
Yeah, I mean, so at heart, we're a testing laboratory, so we're working with suppliers. We're working with brands on both sustainability, chemical compliance, legal compliance type things, but we're also working with them on on innovation and developing those and bringing those to market. So on one hand, the chemical compliance, the sustainability certifications that exist, I think, is a little bit easier, because those are sort of globally recognized. They're globally implemented. And so it really is about working with those suppliers to understand who is their who is their customer, what is their customer asking them for? How are they going to leverage those third party certifications to then fulfill those requirements and sort of be the easy button, the shortcut to get there, and hopefully reduce some redundancy within the supply chain, either additional audits or additional testing and things like that. On the innovation side, it really is a different story, because on the on innovative materials, that by nature, they're coming with something and saying this is very unique to the market. So we have to first understand, what does the product do? But what we've also found from experience is finding out what is, what are the communications teams or the marketing teams planning to say about the product? Because that's the first step is making sure that are those things going to line up, and then how do we work through from a scientific approach to develop a methodology that's going to really prove and be able to be supported by their customers and even competitors that might challenge it? Because what we've seen is that once companies test and innovation, then their competitors are going and saying, Hey, we think our product is better than that product, and it does the same thing. So having a recognized a third party, something that is a little bit more open, at least, on the methodology of how it's evaluated, is sometimes very valuable in that process.

Speaker 1
Thanks. Elizabeth s group works to bridge sourcing and development with technology and marketing. How do you go about doing that for an ingredient brand?

Speaker 5
Yeah, so this is piggybacking off of what has already been spoken about and the need for collaboration. And certainly, there's two parts of creating a brand that are essential. It's the product and then the marketing, which is the story that goes along with, how do you get that message out to the consumer that this is a brand that you want, and the earlier that we can partner on that strategy, the more successful, the more sustainable it's going to be. So that's partnering with, you know, noble fibers is partnering with cool core and making sure that the testing is completed in hitting the attributes of the end consumer. Or meaning our brand and their end consumer are going to want it's aligning on the price expectations and then the lead time on how quickly we can get it into the market, making sure we're hitting all those benchmarks of quality and testing standards.

Speaker 1
Great Greg helos provides an opportunity to bring members of the supply chain under one roof for testing. Can you tell us about the incubator and how the process works? Yeah,

Speaker 6
so hilos was incorporated about four years ago. It is a zero waste on demand footwear platform that radically changes not only how footwear is designed, but also how it's manufactured and fulfilled. So no inventory, no waste made locally. And I happen to be sitting in for our CEO who couldn't be here. Find it interesting that I'm the footwear guy here at an apparel and textile event, which I think is great. And I think so much of what we were talking about in terms of collaboration spans across the entire industry. What hilos has done is tried to take away a lot of the barriers of what time looks like. So we don't work off of an 18 month product creation calendar. It's usually between four and six months. We're not burdened by inventory and supply chain carrying costs, logistics costs, so we have a gross margin model that's radically different and far more profitable for brands who want to do things differently with respect to footwear, but it really is a blend of technology using AI generative design as well as craft. And so I would encourage you all to take a look at what hilos has done. We just announced an incredible partnership with Steve Madden, which is really the first in the four industry that was able to do that. And we've got a couple of other great announcements coming in the next couple of months.

Speaker 1
Perfect. We're talking a little bit about this before the talk the supply chain now, versus, say, 15 years ago, and where innovation is developed. Would someone want to talk a little bit about the changes they've seen?

Speaker 2
Take that on? I think it's interesting that we're at a we're at this apparel, textile, mainly for apparel, the textile form here. And really what we see is brands are coming here to shop. They're coming here to shop for innovation. They're looking at fabrics that are different. They do different things. They have different product attributes, and they want to bring them into their lines. And they want to they a they need some they need some qualifications, whether it's certification of testing or whether it's regulatory. For us, it's really a forum for them to develop their lines and have a point of view for their brand. Whereas I think 15 years ago, 20 years ago, brands would would come to a forum like this a trade show, and already have that point of view baked in, they would say, we have innovated this fabric, we have innovated this product to do these things, to solve these problems. And we don't really have a forum for like for brands like that anymore. They they go direct to consumers with their messages. They go direct to the market with a point of view and really their brand voice, versus, you know, an innovation that was tied directly to that brand. So I think the the motive has changed to go find innovation in one form, versus develop an innovation based upon the brand. So I think that's just a bit of change that's happened over a decade or so. Sure. 

Speaker 1
What do you think, Greg? Do you have any thoughts?

Speaker 6
I always have thoughts, but let me see if I can jump in on this. Yeah. You know, as I think about how supply chains have changed over the last 15 or 20 years, we we whether while I was at Nike or more recently, at hilos, we really think about how the consumer is changing, the way supply chains must change. Part of our initiative in the made in Old Town was to actually help augment what is a very time consuming, very inefficient and costly supply chain that us in footwear and apparel have to deal with on a regular basis. And so we built, and in the process of building, a campus right here in Portland, which is a nine building, 330,000 square foot Innovation Campus for footwear and apparel brands and suppliers to come together, to collaborate, to ideate, to test and to do things much more quickly. And I think you're going to start to see other parts of the supply chain start to force time and cost and efficiency, not so much because of tariffs, but because, I think the consumer is going to challenge companies to do things much more quickly. 

Speaker 1
Yeah, great. We've talked a lot about suppliers taking on bigger roles and becoming more of a full service solution. So Eric, I thought maybe you could talk about this a little bit. What are your feelings on suppliers playing a bigger role in innovation?

Speaker 3
I mean, I like it, right? So I'm gonna build on what Alan said, is that coming from the consumer side, we would come to events like this to shop for technology, and then we would build a story around that technology. And my hope is, is that brands are coming here. A lot of people are talking about cooling. I hope they come to us and say, Wow, that's a great cooling story, and they can build around it. But we also have brands coming to us saying, we think we need to do cooling, and we're not really sure how to apply it, and we might be able to say, hey, here's what's happening in workwear for cooling, here's what's happening in sportswear, here's what's happening in farm and ag, so there's lots of different areas. So I I like to hold that innovation piece of it, but I'll also comment that what Elizabeth said is, we're then also expected to say, here are the marketing claims, here's your marketing campaign, here's this will work 25% better than the other. So it's not just the technical innovation that we have to deliver, but we have to deliver the marketing story, and then we have to be able to deliver that same exciting technology in slightly different ways for different brands. So I like it. Everybody can come to me for cooling, but it does put an onerous amount of innovation marketing that maybe once let led lived at the brand now has to live on the supplier side. And quite frankly, that costs, that costs money. 

Speaker 1
So I guess Ben then to you, you know kind of what's your feeling on testing and certification coming from the supplier side, like they, how do you work with firms in that way? Yeah,

Speaker 4
I mean, it's no secret, right? So that's expensive, it's it's not really fun. People want to do it because they and most of the time, either they're doing it for compliance issue. They're doing it for a customer issue, or they're doing it really because they believe it, but they need that third party validation to go behind it. And so we see that the motivation for it is very important, and so to get a lot of value out of it, the testing needs to not just be a piece of paper. It needs to be something that you can do something with and something that creates the opportunity to say this product works better, but it also gives me some clues about how I can change the next version, because we know there's going to be a next version. And what are those? What are those changes do? And what are they? What do they focus on? So the challenge we see is that from the supplier side, they're not ready to spend the money most of the time to do the testing, unless they know that there's a customer there to buy it, right? And so for them, having a having a committed partner in that, and really, truly a partner, not just somebody said, yeah, if you do it and it passes, then we're willing to do it, but having somebody that they know is going to stand behind it and says, This is an innovation process. And so we understand the methodology. We believe in the product. If we test it this way, we know it's telling us the truth. So we're willing to stand with you like you have the innovation you have to go and create it, but we want to help and be there as the results come and figure out, what does that mean in the future, so that they start to build more or less a library that says, okay, we can we know this. If we do this, it performs this way. If we do this, it performs slightly better or worse, and then they can go from there. So they build a whole portfolio, because the suppliers, customers are totally different, the products are totally different. So just because it was a failure for what the one, their one brand customer, was trying to do, doesn't mean it's not a success that they can have in the future, but if they throw the data away and say, Oh, it didn't work for that one, then they might just skip over it and pass over it. So they need that commitment to know that keeping that and going and testing in the same way consistently is important.

Speaker 1
Great. Elizabeth, I'd kind of like to get your thoughts on what are some of the challenges for you, as you know, doing marketing and other things for these brands? Sure, running

Speaker 5
the supply chains for brands. And I think that it ties into the question about how has the supply chain changed in the last 1520, years? And I think that for the better overall, that there is a much more drill down into understanding what is going on, where everyone's clothes are being made, and there's a lot more transparency, which is necessary. And yes, cost comes with that, because a lot of compliance has increased in order to keep you know the citizens of the world safe and taken care of. And there's been a lot of exposure for brands that are taking advantage of that. And. So I think that as a result, we got fast fashion, you know, we had a lot of people find ways to get around all of those compliance needs and creating, you know, brands that drove down or provided less expensive apparel, and then we got into the sustainability issues of understanding that those brands also created a lot of harm in what they were doing. So, you know, there's a lot of global economic conversations there, but overall, we were discussing, prior to this conversation, that the rigidity of the retail markets and the timeline expectations haven't changed, right? So there has been all these shifts in supply chain and compliance and requirements and testing and wanting to do innovative things, but we still are held to these standards of a sales meeting and markets and buys are only at a certain time, and the DTC brands did a lot of disruption in that of saying we don't care when it's ready, it will launch when it's ready, and we're not going to be held To those unrealistic standards, which require a significant amount of waste, both financially and in materials and in garments that, if they're not adopted, where does that fabric go? Right? So I think that, you know, we were laughing about it, but one thing that would greatly help the sustainability efforts in everyone and cost would be to blow up the market calendar. And you know, what is? What is the real need of that, that everyone has to gather at a set time to decide what's going to be bought when? What were we saying? 90% of buys are already secured by then. Anyway, so is it just for show? Is it just because everyone wants to, you know, congregate in New York City? Who knows? But that is, that is a real challenge that I think that we face pretty much daily, of hitting unrealistic standards that were predetermined.

Speaker 2
Definitely makes sense. Can I add a little bit to that? Because I think, I think this industry, specifically the outdoor industry, set the marker, and really for the world, said we've got to be more sustainable, right? And so 20 years ago, you go to outdoor industry, the innovation was sustainability, recycled yarns, recycled fabrics. That was all, you know, turning bottles into apparel. That was innovation. And it was happening, and it happened at shows like this, and it somewhere in the evolution. It was like, Okay, so we're just in now sustainability is being questioned, right as a term, it's being regulated in Europe, and so it caught on in a big way. And I think, as Elizabeth was saying, it's like, so now how do we look at sustainability as a production practice? Because we were the charters, if you will. We were the this this industry helped the world kind of recognize how to be responsible in production and produce better. And you know, every one of these shows starts off with kind of the industry saying, here are our markers, here's our charters, and here's how well we're doing. But we need to do more. And I think we're starting to see this kind of a little bit of tension of, yeah, the supply chain is really delivering on some of those sustainability goals, and we're really, we should be proud as an industry of everything that we've achieved. We also may need to pump the brakes a little bit on how fast and how much we're producing, because that is really from a energy and production standpoint, that's where, you know, a lot of this lives now, it's the innovation is there, but how much of it are we producing?

Speaker 1
And we said we were going to talk a little bit about best best practices, you know, what are the advantages of the way that the supply chain works now versus, you know, several years ago? You know, things are crunch, things take lesser time. Kind of, what are the advantages of that? Maybe, Greg, do you want to talk about that

Speaker 6
Sure? You know, I think, I think I'll go back to in the footwear space, what we've learned about the supply chain and why it becomes so difficult to challenge. I'd love Elizabeth your point about just the timelines and the expense with that. What we've learned as we work with brands is that it's very difficult for whether you're a small, medium or large brand to disrupt this product creation calendar that everybody is so adept at. And what we've done is we've helped brands actually disrupt the calendar for them, but it requires buying at the various highest levels of the brands. It requires a different P and L, at least initially, and so until brands are willing to drive real change, carving out a small portion of their business, thinking differently about the PnL not being constrained to the calendar, I think we're going to continue to be on this cycle. We're starting to see some really positive impact. Connect with the 20 or 30 brands that we've spent time with, willing to make some radical changes, because they know it's important, not just from an environmental and sustainability standpoint, but actually from a profitability perspective, and from a different way of serving the consumer. And so we're starting to see that, and I think, I think more innovations, more companies who can help brands think through that, I think you'll start to see more of that happen. I'm sure people, you guys, have some 

Speaker 3
The only, thing I would sort of add to that, though, is at this show, we've had discussions with brands that are working on SS 25 and SS 30. Okay, so from a timeline perspective, it's a D to C, a small d to c brand is like we're still trying to put together. SS, 25 and a larger brand, yeah, we want to be here by SS, 30. What can we do? So it's a little wild. In that perspective. I don't really have a point to make, other than it's pretty wild, the range of timelines that we're actually working with.

Speaker 2
Well, in a to add to that, just the manufacturing cycle, right? We work with with EDI on a product that is a, you know, waterless dyeing and yarn, amazing. But then you start to talk to the production, all the production units and then the people involved in like, but that totally turns our whole manufacturing process upside down. And, yeah, it's a disrupter, but it actually, you can reduce a lot of the input, or, you know, water and chemicals and dying by by by looking at it different and doing it differently, but it, you know, it, it. It is a disrupter, and it takes a lot to change that mindset.

Speaker 8
Any other thoughts on, you know, the supply chain in general, where are the weakest points? What needs the most improvement? What's going to help you guys the most?

Speaker 3
I'll say again, just from a supplier standpoint, if the brands can be aligned on the marketing as well as the materials and the testing generally, one of those seem to go wrong and hold up the whole thing. So that's just more like I've enjoyed a lot of this discussions we've had here, because I'll have a design person, a materials person, rarely a marketing person here. I'd love to see more marketing people at functional fabrics. I think that would help move a lot of this, a lot of this forward. 

Speaker 5
Yeah, yeah, no. And I think that as we were discussing the the theory of the relativity of value in a technology. It depends on who you're talking to at a brand. It could be the project manager, the developer, the CEO, they're all going to have a different opinion on what is required to launch a certain product, what's important, what's going to drive cost, and therefore, they need a separate messaging, right? And all of that, if it passes, then needs to be messaged to the end consumer in a way that they will understand, because talking to people inside the industry is completely different than talking to the end consumer. And then, if we're talking about, you know, a shoe brand, apparel brand, lifestyle brand, all of that has different language, but it's the same product, right? Do you call it antimicrobial, or is that kind of gross? So you say antibacterial, because that's more understandable, right? Or anti odor, no stink. There's so many ways to say the same thing, and all of those, they actually do matter, right? Like, what are you putting on your on your sock, clam?

Speaker 2
Well, and even to add to that, it's regulated. So when you talk about marketing, it's, can we get the brands and the industry to get together and say the same thing? Then we have to get all the countries and all the regions together to say the same thing. And that's a burden that we take on. And I know a lot of industry, a lot of fabric makers, a lot of supply chain are, you know, not only the certifications of testing, but also regulatory. Different you can say from a marketing claim standpoint, you can't say everything universally across the globe. And so that's another challenge, and it is an education for the marketing teams, because everybody gets confused as to what you can and cannot say. So you have to build in, in our case, we have to build in regulatory into our departments, into our systems, so that we can advise brands, because we as the supply chain, we don't get in trouble if there's a marketing claim out there by a brand, the brands are the ones that have to have that due diligence to make sure they're saying the right things, And they won't be held in or they will be held to compliance, because they'll get in trouble. We won't get in trouble. So again, it's just another complexity to marketing as well.

Speaker 4
I don't know that this is really a weakness of the supply chain, but I think in the future, and we're a little bit insulated from it here. Because the innovation is so important, and the innovation is really tied to those specific materials and products and supply chain that exists. But I think the what we know is coming is that the transparency into the supply chain is going to be higher and higher and so companies, whether it's brands or it's the first tier manufacturers, are going to have to be figure out, how do they deliver innovation in an environment where they know they have to provide a little bit higher level of detail of who helped them along the way, where they haven't done that in the past, because that information about where it came from and what the details of it are in it, if it's for digital product passport or whatever, are going to be carried through the product. And so that's going to be a little bit of an inhibitor, potentially, for innovation. If companies can't, can't figure out how to get a grasp around how that works, because everybody's invested in it, right? You don't want to give that away to everybody right away. And so I think that's going to be a challenge of, how do those, what are those supply chains look like in the future?

Speaker 6
I would just add too, you know, and this really isn't a pitch at all for made in Old Town, but so many of the problems that you're all talking about really sits in this space, not just the space of new ideas, but a physical way of brands and suppliers and specialty vendors to come together to solve some of these really Big problems. And whether you're a big, well capitalized company or a small emerging brand coming together and collaborating in one location to do that, that's actually what this industry has always been about. I mean, we stress a lot about community and this idea of working together, and it's becoming more and more difficult to do that, not only because it's challenging to get overseas and to have vendors and suppliers come and visit shows like this are great, but imagine doing something like this 50 weeks out of the year, not a show per se, but but really a place where a lot of some of these big challenges can be uncovered together.

Speaker 8
Great point. I think we have some time for questions

Speaker 7
before we get onto the questions. Can I ask us to show our appreciation for the panel? Please? Now this is your ideal opportunity. I'm not going to estimate, but we have a couple of centuries worth of wisdom on the panel. At the moment, you can ask them almost anything, but it would help if it was related to the subject. But I'm going to kick off until I see hands going up in a perfect world that we dream of what's the one thing you would change to make your life easier? What would really make the process run more smoothly? And if I start with Susan, because you're in publishing.

Speaker 1
Oh, me about publishing or about, okay, I think that, you know, for me, things have changed in that there's less events like this to go to. I'm not speaking to a lot of people like I used to on the phone. People are busy. People are texting and emailing. But this is still really important. So getting out to see people face to face, talking about issues such as these, is really helpful for me. Talking about the subject matter. You know, when I'm coming out with the next issue for 2025 I want to know what, you know, what people are talking about, what are the hot points? So this is an important panel for this.

Speaker 7
Would anyone else like to make out how their world could be improved? 

Speaker 6
Yeah, I'll jump in. I think one of the things that makes the industry great is that there's such a competitive environment, whether you're from a brand or from a supplier, but imagine in the future where there's also a non competitive space, and that brands and suppliers are coming together to actually solve some of the challenges that we've talked about. So to answer your question, in terms of perfect world, I'd love to see a better balance between competitive and pre competitive, and really zeroing in on the things that matter most.

Speaker 5
I would say I don't know how tangible it is, but I know that after a recent trip down to Columbia and seeing the innovation that's happening there and the excited staff, the teams, the factories. I think there's a huge opportunity to further explore. I know that there are a lot of brands that have presence outside of Southeast Asia, but I think in terms of the costing that we were talking about, of how that drives up the cost of innovation, well, certainly that is the cost of the materials and, of course, the technology itself, but it's also the cost. To air, either physically people to go there, or to air the materials back and forth. And then the minimums that we're facing. You know, I think that one of the biggest risks and cost is that in order for everyone to be made whole, we're placing these minimum orders that are not realistic. And if the customer, the end customer, votes no, then we've put all this time and money behind something that isn't actually going to run its course. Everyone loses money in that, and I think it's a lot of unrealistic standards in that. I don't know how to break it, but that wasn't the question. It was, what would I What would I change? But you know, the minimums are certainly a challenge as we're trying to drive to be more sustainable, and the overhead required in the large manufacturing facilities in Southeast Asia is a huge component of that. Not that you want to immediately pull out. Obviously, that would be very damaging to a global climate or environment and economics. But, yeah, I think that there's a there's needs to be more investigation into how do we resource and and do more boutique manufacturing,

Speaker 2
I would say, just from a kind of all of these comments, I think it would be one thing that I would hope and part of the reason of doing these kinds of events is a really get the end user, the consumer, to understand the supply chain. When the consumer understands all of this work, there is massive billions of dollars of investment and energy, and it's a massive supply chain, not just for our industry, but all industries. And I think there's, quite honestly, kind of a lack of education as to how much work, how much effort, how much time and money and energy and resources go into what we make? And I, you know, going to the maker go into Old Town. As part of it, we have college students that come by our booth and they're asking, and they've got their tasks, and they, you know, they have their assignments, and they, they get educated. And you can see the minds you know, being you know, formed as like, oh my gosh, there is so much that's involved in, just color, just yarn development, the types of yarns, like, there is so much involved. And I think if I were be able to change something for the day, have the consumer look at a beautiful garment, and understand the effort and the energy and the investment that goes into that, and to realize hold on to that, it you got to hold on to. I know a lot of people in this in this hall over years, and we discuss all of the great products that were developed 1015, years ago, and you meet them on the trail, you meet them, you know, biking or skiing, you're like, yeah, they don't make that anymore, and I'm not giving it up. And that does not go on gear trade that goes nowhere, that stays in the closet, because it's awesome gear. And so that appreciation is somehow, I think, I don't know if it's being lost, but it it's certainly important. So that would be my one.

Speaker 7
I'm still looking for extra questions, because if I start to pick on them with more precise questions, they'll hate me. You have one of the wisest groupings that we have assembled at the functional fabric fare. Does nobody want? Of course, after the show, if you don't want to ask your question publicly, they will be available, and they will help.

Speaker 8
What do you think is the balance between global supply chain, where you have you outsource a lot of the production to the cheapest country with the most pollution versus high tariffs. Where do you think the balance is?

Speaker 5
Well, yeah, I mean, they're kind of one in the same right now. So the s group actually doesn't do a lot of manufacturing in China. We export from them. But, yeah, well, right, the large tariffs, that's where my mind goes. So, yeah, I mean, I think the balance is, is crucial, but I think it's the areas of expertise, which is, you know, along with where the money is, and that's where the infrastructures are being built. And so I think that that's, you know, what my wish was, is to invest in countries where you know not to destroy the current infrastructures, but to do it in a way that's safe and and start to build up the boutique. Because what you're saying is make better, not more, right? So it lasts longer, a longer life cycle. And then that's in itself. Is the true sustainability.

Speaker 2
I think when we talk by regions and being it goes kind of back to that point of where you make matters, how you make matter, and coming back. The investment overall as an industry we need. We made great strides on the sustainability, but that doesn't, and I don't know if your question is directly tied to labor, but that's part of for a day, if the consumer understood, and kind of had a glimpse into how the supply chain moves to follow labor, or to follow production and to follow how to make things faster, cheaper, maybe not better. And so I think if we truly want to make things better overall, not just as a generalization of product or anything, when you make it better. It actually has ripple effects across all regions. Products that are made better will need better regulation. They'll need better certification. So that that in itself is an investment, I think.

Speaker 7
Can I point out we now have a minimum wage in China. We've had it since 2010 and that's only because of the economic investment of the textile and agricultural trade. So we are bringing good to other parts of the world. But that sounds like a very first world northern emissary attitude. But in the 25 years I've been going to China, I've seen massive changes. China now has the fastest growing middle class in the world, but over the next 25 years, we're estimating over one and a half billion more middle class in that country alone.

Speaker 2
And that's an incredible pace, right? So like you said you go to China 20 years ago, where they are today is, I mean, there, there are cities that were absolute, you know, bottom and now Shenzhen is an example. It's the high tech center of the world that happened in 20 years, which is fascinating from a human evolution standpoint,

Speaker 7
I'm still looking for questions, because if you haven't got questions, can I ask us all once again to thank the panel like.