Ep. 95: Comparing and adapting standards vs indexes

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Ep. 95: Comparing and adapting standards vs indexes

The Textile Innovation Podcast talks to Daniel Rufenacht, chief executive officer at Bluesign, about how to stay ahead in the textile industry and ways of working that benefit the planet.

WTiN
Hello, and welcome to textile innovation hosted by WTiN. My name is Ruby, and I'm the news editor and your podcast host. Each month, we're going to be joined by a brand new special guest. So join me and my colleagues as we deep dive into what's new, what's interesting and what unmissable innovations have hit the market recently, we cover everything on the podcast from sustainability to startups and the latest research and developments. And we also quiz the experts in the fields about their new products and ideas across a huge spectrum that is the textiles industry. So no matter what your interest is weta and have you covered, and we can connect you to everything you need to know right here from our central hub in the UK. In this episode, I speak to Danielle refract, who is the CEO of blue sign technologies over in Switzerland, we talk about his personal history within sustainability before taking care of a company the differences between indexes and standards, why collaboration is important for the future of textiles and how the company is positioning itself to stay at the forefront. So let's get started. Firstly, thank you so much for chatting with me, it would be great to hear about you and your journey before taking over CEO blue sign. Have you always worked within sustainability?

Daniel Rufenacht
Thank you, Ruby for this invite. I'm really happy to talk to you this morning. To your question. It's a big question. You don't see me on the screen. So you would see that I'm I'm 50 past and have more than 30 years experience in sustainability. Starting in my young days, I always said you know, I was throwing stones into windows of multinational companies in Switzerland, because I didn't agree with society. And then my dad told me that I had to pay for this. And I had to go to the factory for two years, paying back all my debts, the broken windows, then I realised that sustainability is not about reacting against but getting engaged in doing. And I quickly understood that sustainability at company level was was something very important. So what I did first is I'm really, during my studies, I wrote an essay on integrating sustainability into management. And that was in the late 80s. So when we were starting talking about environment, and I remember my professor told me, you have zero chance with a topic like that. And it ended up to be one of the best of the time at that moment. That okay, this works, I can go on. So I I joined the Swiss government. And that time, you know, the 80s 90s, there was a trend saying okay, let's do trade and a so we find we had to find and discover companies in developing countries, help them to develop their business opportunities into Switzerland and help them export. That was a trade and a period of sustainability. So we were helping, what today is delocalization at that early stages, were helping Swiss companies to find suppliers in developing countries, so that they develop their business and create value in the country. To export to Switzerland, there was an overall scheme that was that wasn't the Swiss government, but also in other European countries. For the funding part, I always say I started my career as an old old man consultant jobs around the world consulting companies and trying to find them possibilities into into this. And then I I wrote for the Swiss government, the code of conduct, and out of that, I got a great opportunity to join a company that was called switcher. Today we talk about digital product passports to talk about traceability, we talk about impact. We did that all in 2000 online. So we launched on the market, the cleanest t shirt in the world. And we sold it for less than 10 Swiss francs or something like integrating all the traceability so we in that time in 2000 We built a traceability tool where we said okay, it was the start of internet. I don't know whether you remember we had our first online shop and we when you were shopping you could actually track back which cotton field the cotton was coming from Indonesia, which spinner which middle which dial factory which CNV which transportation, but the time we were talking about co2 emission but full traceability with that. So I turned this company over the winter and it's comfortable to the most sustainable company with nice products and then I had a great opportunity to join SGS the leading inspection testing inspection and certification company in the world. He has became leader in Dow Jones became footsie for good member we had a lot of we were talking to investors in the early days 2000 A 2010 15 years We're about sustainability, we even the education of the investor until this big, this big trend of ESG came in, where 2017 The whole world, discovered environmental, social and government. And then there was a kind of pickup of sustainability. The difficult question to make this long answer very short. I'm breathing sustainability for the past 30 years, at least, it's my passion, and with blue sign, and, honestly, it is absolutely great. Because the blue side on a daily basis, what we do is reduce the impact of the textile and garment industry on the planet, whether it's a mountain impact, or social impact. So

WTiN
you mentioned that you're not CEO of the sign. Can you tell me more about what it is that bluesign does a little bit about the history there, and more importantly, its goals.

Daniel Rufenacht
No side has been founded 20 years by 33 years back in 2000. Again, you know, when I was talking before about switch, and trying to sustainable towards sustainability, it was the first step towards a better use of chemicals in the textile industry. So bluesign was created to implement something that is today really demanded, which is InputStream manager to make it very clear and very short, if you don't use bad chemicals from the beginning, you don't mean to remove them at the end, as simple as that. So the concept is very clear, you use better chemicals in the processes in your production, and then you have less impact at the end. And you have less impact along the value chain. And that's the whole concept of two sides. So we we establish a list of better chemicals that are published on our in a tool that is called finder, even public, you can have a look at the public finder. And we motivate brands manufacturers to use the better chemicals in the production of their GM. For that we talk to the chemical industry, we do have a look at all their products, we do assessment of their products, we do evaluation of their product, those products go on to a positive risk, which is the blue sign glueless, in this case is made available to the maximum of potential user in the value chain, what we do we then measure this impact and we can say okay, bluesign has contributed to reduce so much percentage of co2 emissions, so much wastewater reduction, so much weight reduction, but more importantly, and that's very crucial, because all of this trend towards sustainability is all about reducing, we are there to do positive. And we measure also, the quality of better chemicals that has been used in the value chain. And today we know is this digital passport coming up in Europe, and also traceability which have many governments, we are right with the right product at the right place at the right moment, which for many companies today, this is really new. But for us, it's our daily bread for more than 40 years, we have a team of more than 100 people, I really insist we don't have time anymore to review. The world has to be positive, we are going to miss the 2030 We only have 70 messages. We're going to miss that receipt today. What happens that cop is no good. I was in cop 20 Cop 21. In Paris, I was there to sign disagree agreement, right, this reduction of containment of two degrees, temperature rates. And I'm gonna say honestly, I'm really disappointed today. And I know today it's still on a voluntary basis. But as of 2013, that will be the tip of legislators. So what we are doing now at the moment is Bill Simon, we are preparing all our partners with more than 150 partners with us more than 150 brands that believe in us. We're helping them to prepare to get above or ahead of legislation, legislation will kick in very hard in practice, because we're gonna miss all these goals. And governments will say okay, now we have to act because we are not on the right track. And is the last chance to change the trackpad. So that's why doing positive is more important than reduction.

That is something I'm hearing quite a lot with the interviews that I'm doing is that it seems to be this kind of disconnect where people within the industry are the time is running out. And if we're not going to meet these goals, we need to do something immediately whereas consumed as a kind of I feel like I'm more relaxed about it because people in the industry Lycos knows the extent of it a little bit more I guess, Ruby,

I'm gonna say something that would shock you and your auditor and doesn't matter. I I'm automatically allowed to say that they buy whatever you offer them. So I know 30 years ago, I want you understood, you have to change the industry, you have to change the decision makers that make you better products in the market. I have not seen many there. There are some, of course, but I've seen many consumer organisations say, hey, we want better products, and then the industry doing better. It's very difficult as a consumer and consumer association to make your voice heard. Legislation is much stronger than that. If you want to change legislation, if you want to change the industry, you need to have no better arguments. At the higher level. I've always said look, working in sustainability, there's so many today that it's absolutely fantastic. When I started in sustainability, there was there was no indication there was no training, it was learning by doing. But now you have universities that will talk about this, everywhere we talk about.

WTiN
I just want to go back a little bit to something that I from my research kind of believed to be the foundation for blue sign Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that it is standardisation? Why do you think that it's so important to have standardisation within the industry? And in an ideal world? What would complete and utter transparency look like?

Daniel Rufenacht
Oh, there are hundreds 1000s Millions of standards in the market. For everything you have a kind of standard or no criteria, but whatever what it is, that's important, you need to have a baseline on which you are measured against. And that's very important for anything, right? And depends who is at the base of the standard? And what is the pension understand that and what is i mobile leading index expense standards, it was a standard is something that is very static. And then you have a multi stakeholder group that makes it evolve. You integrate all the stakeholders, ideas and stakeholders requests very often the standard is something that is watered down, right or a standard is a content of many interest groups. In proposition which is absolutely great, because we need this consultation, what is more efficient nowadays is an index. Because with an index you can set in the market apart with Okay, those are the things we have to do. And then you can measure against this index, whether you are good or bad. So with an index, you can make the whole industry progress with a standard, you have to comply with a standard. And then the progress is a bit slower and a bit different.

WTiN
I want to go back to something else you said earlier about companies you've worked with before. So you said the company has been growing since 2000. you've collaborated with some other companies since that inception. Can you tell me a bit more about that, I know that one of the big ones that I've seen is the sustainable apparel coalition

Daniel Rufenacht
is really to insist on the importance of the chemicals, and the importance of the good chemicals and the positive. And for that we need or we have to we have to be in collaboration with all the initiatives. But it's not only SSC, that you see it also welding. It's also you know, the European outdoor group, world, outdoor group we are in, we try you know, everywhere we can to promote better candidate to be successful. You need this is not the convergence that you need this acceptance of these different standards and initiatives to position bluesign not only as a simple criteria, developer of better chemicals, but also to make to increase acceptance and to make it known. And that's that's a big challenge. Because we are today we are 100 people working in Busan that we belong to SGS that has more than 100,000, almost 100,000 people. We have a great network and we can influence in so many places as we have we have enough people to do it. Very good relationships with all its multi stakeholder initiatives we value them might be important, but we also have our way that's important now that our blue side criteria is for us. It's the bedrock of our

WTiN
talking to companies throughout the Textile Supply Chain two things sprang to mind for them when first beginning to kind of wrap your head around standardisation and transparency, and they are cost and confusion. Unfortunately, many of them are kind of under the impression that it will cost them 1000s if not millions to begin that process and they don't really know where to start with that. Can you offer any advice or add anything to that.

Daniel Rufenacht
I love that question. I would like to put this question back to you that this learner would answer them. Why Ruby? Is it normal that we use back then? Because, unfortunately, yes, but it shouldn't be. The answer is there are these companies saying yeah, but you know, it's gonna cost as much more to be better when you use when you do science, it's all about resource management. Okay. So using better chemicals, using less impactful chemicals is also known as cost Resource Manager, that's most of the companies do not understand that they say, Oh, we're going to spend a lot of money to clean up our value chain. So you're not going you're not going to spend the time you're going to save money because it's better resource manager, less water, less chemicals, less effect, which is also less common. We see with with a manufacturer that says yeah, I had a problem. And they are, I will say that I have so many initiatives in the month brands are asking me to do to do initiatives and then I have to pay for it, the banks will not pay. But not all brands are like that, you know, when you do investment, nowadays, you invest, we do all our calculation on what we call best available technology. And then sometimes you come to the limit of what you can do by reduction, or by your water saving or chemical savings, then you invest in better technology. That's another that's where the minutes come in, because when your tech technology is obsolete, you need to buy new machinery, the new machinery that is coming in is much more sustainable than former machine. So the confusion comes from the fact that the market is very open. And you have a lot of initiatives that fight and centre that proposes solutions can convince a brand to go with them. So you will have a bank coin is one solution and other bank coin will give you an example of traceability. Now with a DBQ. Coming into Europe, we have more than 40 providers already have traceability. In every case, every plan is another partner. In all honesty, the opening of the market bringing more competition is positive for the manufacturers, and not negative.

WTiN
So say a company did want to seek blue sign approval, what is the certification process like and what criteria do they need to meet? Or does it vary from company to company.

Daniel Rufenacht
We have these three different calibres of customers, we have chemical manufacturer company that makes the chemical chemical supplier, we have the manufacturers, the government is mankind. And we have the brand. So there are three different products, it always starts with an assessment try to improve along the criteria for chemicals. So the chemical industry will give us their chemicals, we will analyse the chemicals, and we will run by products, which we'll look at how they produce it and how it's done. And then products come to the fore. Manufacturers, we also have an assessment, how they use the cables, and then they can this assessment then they become partners to improve on how to use the chemicals and how to produce and for the brand to your brand assessment and see how the brand is behaving was its supply chain and how they know their supply chain. Because the whole traceability work that we do on the supply chain, it's also an assessment, and then that become system partner, your partner will help you to improve. So it's not that we go and see and look at them and say hey, you're bad. When you are good come back. It's usually what the standard is doing or what the certification is doing. When you have a certain level, I don't go into the details because it's very technical and complicated. But for instance, we have what we call proof chemicals. So when the chemical is approved, you get the label approved chemicals, and you are listed them. As a manufacturer, you have articles, so you can create articles with a label and it's called proof fabric in a brand can then take that proof chemicals that proves fabric to make an approved product. And this is the final label that you find in the market. When you go for instance to sea mammals, or Patagonia, or all our partners, 150 partners, all of them kind of labelling and put this bluesign approved label on their product.

WTiN
I want to move on to something a bit more broad now which I kind of draw upon your knowledge in the industry. What trends do you foresee in the future of sustainable textiles and how is bluesign positioning itself to stay at the forefront of these developments?

Daniel Rufenacht
What I foresee is, is very simple. We at some point legislation as I said with fast fashion will suffer From legislation, and we have to adapt. And I strongly believe in adaptation, I strongly believe in transformation. As I said, using dedicated calls to better production conditions, consumer trend will increase with today we produce more than 100 billion pieces of textile per annum 100 billion. And then we throw away 12 kilo of garments, perhaps we are heading towards the kind of catastrophe that you see is plastics all over the places, chemical repetitive tech sideways all over the place. And this would change is that what really happened is that this company really reinvent very quickly. The consumer today is increasing consumption, because it's fast consumption, you know, you get something, you don't even send it back anymore, even send it back. Even more polluting, it's really a waste. You know, it's really wasteful society, there's no value anymore. But it's finally gone, because we have so many countries that have to catch up with consumption. And you see in the discussion, certain countries asking for relief in your favour, we need now another four or five years of pollution to catch up, economically. But we also help the small companies launch. That means startup can come to us and in our marketplace, can use from the start from the beginning, better companies, and better products. And that's how we try to position also that's the future of the effect size, we need. As I said before, we need to the positive with the negative will always be here too cheap and negative will always be that's that's for sure. There will be much more room for smaller brands in the future for local brands.

WTiN
This seems like a really good place to end the questions. So thank you so much for chatting with me. I really, really appreciate it.

Daniel Rufenacht
Oh, thank you very much.

WTiN
If you have any questions for WTiN then you can reach out over Twitter, find us at WTiN_comment or you can contact me directly at Ruby at WTiN and if you fancy sponsoring an episode of the podcast, please email sales@wtin.com. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next month.