Ep. 118: Scalable bio-based solutions

This transcription has been AI generated and therefore may have some inaccuracies.

Ep. 118: Scalable bio-based solutions

The Textile Innovation Podcast speaks with Alexa Raab, director of communications and Matthew Cole, brand marketing manager for Sorona at Covation Biomaterials.

WTiN: Hello and welcome to textile innovation hosted by WTiN My name is Abi and I'm the Features Editor and your podcast host. Each month, we will be joined by a special guest to join me and my colleagues as we deep dive into what's new, what's interesting, and what admissible innovations have hit the market recently, we cover everything on the podcast, from sustainability to start ups and the latest research and development, plus we quiz the experts in the field about their products and ideas across the huge spectrum that is the textile industry. So no matter what your interest is. WTA N, have you covered, and we can connect you to everything you need to know right here from our central hub in the UK.

Welcome back in this episode. I'm joined by Alexa Raab, Director of Communications activation biomaterials, and Matthew Cole Brand Marketing Manager for the Americas curation biomaterials, is a global innovator offering a portfolio of high performance, sustainable solutions. In this episode, we discuss how the company offers bio based, scalable solutions across a range of sectors. In particular, we delve into the serrano brand, which offers a polymer ideal for a wide range of apparel uses.

Hi, Alexa, Matthew, it's great to have you both on the podcast. You both have really interesting backgrounds, please. Could you give our listeners an overview of your careers to date?

Cole: I don't know if Alexa, do you want to go first?

Raab: Absolutely sure. Thanks so much, Abigail. It's a pleasure to join you and my colleague Matthew today. Um, as Abigail said, my name is Alexa Raab. I am currently the Global Communications Director for Covation Bio, based in Newark, Delaware, which is right outside of Philadelphia for our listeners. So I started my career in the public affairs, which was then considered Corporate Communications Department at DuPont. I actually started as a summer intern, and was lucky enough to have a multi multi-faceted career in corporate communications, encompassing digital internal communications, employee communications. You know, if there was something related to developing yourself as a communications professional, I was ready to do it. I was lucky enough to have an opportunity within what was then DuPont industrial Biosciences in 2013 and it was a branded harmoniously raised salmon, and it was called verla. And it was really the first opportunity I had to understand sustainability, how marketing and communications works with consumers and sales to really deliver the message of sustainability to people at what was then the fish counter. So I had the opportunity to partner with a lot of different stakeholders and deliver the message of essentially, why using velocir and buying vrlosso was a critical path to a more sustainable environment. So that's a long way of saying. I found my passion. Then I had a detour into packaging and printing for a couple of years, and then was lucky enough to come into DuPont biomaterials in 2020 so yeah.

So I've been with what is now Covatoin Biomaterials was previously DuPont biomaterials for five years and and that is currently where I am. And excited to be here.

WTiN: Amazing. And Matthew, could you tell us about your career? Please?

Cole: Sure. Certainly. Thanks. Abigail, Alexa pleasure as always exciting. You'll hear some slight overlap in both of our career paths. But as Alexa said with Covation Bio, I'm based in Arizona, and I apologize in my background, there's going to be Alexa going off, but, but, yeah, so I started in with a passion, really, in sustainability as well as international business. So that was always my focus. And so where that brought me with Covation Bio and corona is as their brand manager and marketing manager for what we call the Americas, consisting of Canada, the US, South and Central America. But where that started was in CPG, consumer produce goods. So I was in the food industry for many years, trying to focus on retail stores, grocery stores, large, big box chains, and how.

We really brought quality product and sustainability to really the masses, right to do things that are impactful at scale. So ultimately, through that path that led me to verlazzo Salmon, same as Alexa, which was a joint venture product between DuPont and aqua Chile, located in portomon Chile. So it was very, very cool to work with them, doing the same thing, managing this region between South America and the US. And then ultimately, some members of that team brought me over to the corona team in under the DuPont umbrella, about seven years ago. So I've been working with DuPont or DuPont joint ventures now for almost, almost 15, 14-15, years. So that's really where my expertise comes in. Is managing, really where the sustainability meets the road, and how we bring that to the masses at scale. Because ultimately, if these types of jobs aren't done at scale to begin with it, they're not as quite as impactful as we grow into the future.

WTiN: That's great and thank you. Both really interesting backgrounds. I didn't actually realise that you overlap so much, and obviously you touched upon it then about, obviously curation bio was previously Dupont. Um, Alexa, could you tell me a bit about that background?

Raab: Um, I'm right thinking that curation, curation bio was formed in 2022 after DuPont sold its bio materials business to hoof and group. Yep, you're right. So as you said, Abigail in 2022 DuPont bio materials was purchased by the Huafon Group, and since then, that's the way it's been operating. And yeah, so, so basically, we are an independent business within the Huafon Group. And if you want me to, I can just give you a little bit of background about, you know, what we represent and why we're proud of our mission and vision.

WTiN: Great.

Raab: Yeah, so I think it's important to understand, really what you know, this business and this company brings. And essentially, the way I always like to think about it is we're so lucky because the people that we work with all of the majority of them, I mean, as you heard from Matthew and myself, have this rich DuPont legacy of, you know, innovation and passion for science. And I think part of what always excites me is that the way that my teammates think is just they are always thinking about ways to do things better and ultimately deliver on the expectations of our consumers and our customers. So, you know, I think Matthew touched on this a little bit is part of our passion as Covation Biomaterials is to deliver bio-based solutions, novel solutions, to industries where the materials were previously fossil fuel based, and we want to be able to do that at scale. So I think, you know, it's exciting when you can come up with an alternative product, but you need to be able to replicate it. You need to be able to do it at scale. So I think, you know, something else that's important for everybody to understand is that we touch multiple industries. So you know, there's apparel, you know, Matthew and I work very closely with our Sorona commercial brand. So that's apparel and carpeting, and then we also have cosmetics, food ingredients and different ingredients that go into packaging. So that is part of our zmaya and sister a group.

So you know, essentially, like I said, we are working to deliver bio based building blocks that enable our value chain partners to provide bio based products that are accessible to everyone. So we can talk a little bit more about, you know, how we work with our customers, but essentially, that's really what we're we've set out to do amazing.

WTiN: Thank you and Matthew, could you give a bit of an overview of Covation’s strategy for the textile industry. Obviously, I think that's under the Sorona umbrella. I think I'm right in saying that.

Cole: Certainly. And a lot of those pieces Alexa touched on, right? So one of the difficulties with textile can be that it's such an old, antiquated industry on the whole that it's very interesting and difficult to access large groups of things all in one fell swoop, right? So when you develop a strategy, it's got to consist of your global strategy in terms of the supply chain. It's got to it's got to implement brand.

Trends on the backside of the industry, and all the while you're doing all of that, you also have to have consideration, obviously, for the consumer and what's best for them and what's good for you and the company. So it's, it's, it can be difficult to look at that large playing field with so many different avenues and put together, you know, singular strategies that actually work to develop your growth. So what we do at Covation, and specifically for Sorona is use that, but we really try to break it down into segments that we think are the most influential and the most impactful for, obviously the consumers, but then this, then obviously the brands as well, who are making a lot of these decisions. So and we, and we base those strategies and those categories on what we do, well, from a polymer standpoint, from a business standpoint, so ultimately, what we've kind of come up with is building, you know, building strength in categories like work, wear, athleisure, casual wear, outer wear, really trying to develop those categories, because an inherent value of Corona and one version is stretch and recovery, right?

So comfort stretch that allows us to go into, you know, anything, loungewear, yoga, all of the brands that are the most popular, right? But almost everybody has a version of those types of garments. So really, it's, it's the strategy of developing these categories and how they can be impactful for the entire supply chain. And then really, which is the fun part, what we get to do at Corona when that happens, is then connecting all those dots, so me working at the end of the chain with brands and consumers, telling the story, and then pulling that Polymer through the chain, which we'll talk more about in the podcast. But that's the really exciting part for us, is connecting all those dots and then ultimately seeing those categories play out in the consumers hands in the market.

WTiN: That's great. And you just kind of touched upon that about how about how you work throughout the whole supply chain, and obviously sustainability is key to both of your roles. Could you tell me a bit more how you work with internal, external partners and to attend in terms of sustainability?

Raab: I can start and the Matthew you can chime in. Um, so I think one thing that you will see consistent in all of our messaging is the ideal, or, excuse me, the idea of traceability and transparency. And it's funny, because I remember when I started this role in 2020.

We were at home, and, you know, we all had this time to reflect about the environment and all of the different decisions that we were making. So at that same time, funny enough, we launched our common thread fabric certification program. And essentially what that is, it's exactly what it sounds like, is we work both internally and externally to certify Sorona branded products fabrics, and we have them tested for both performance and content attributes. So the way that you would think about this is, if you are a brand and you want to use our hang tag, or, you know, you want to talk about using Sorona polymer in your garments, we have a process that you would need to follow to make sure that those claims are substantiated. So essentially, you can either work with our preferred mill network, which is, you know, mills that we know have been certified to carry the fabrics that are, you know, certified through our common thread fabric Certification Program, or independently, you can submit fabric samples to be tested. So what happens is, you know, there's certain criteria that this fabric needs to satisfy for how much bio based content it contains in order to, you know, validate those claims. But then also, and this is the part that I think Matthew talked about too, that's really interesting, is the performance attributes. So anything that we develop at Covation biomaterials, has to perform either at or better than the incumbent. So I think we span such a wide variety of applications that there's so many different performance attributes that we can claim. You know, Matthew talked about stretch and recovery. We also, you know, we have insulation. We have some of these fabrics that are inherently wrinkle resistant. So I think if visitors go to our website, you'll see a lot of our different sub brands. Those sub brands, you know, connect to both applications and content and performance attributes.

Cole: So I think, you know, this is a great way to assure that fabrics have the footprint that we claim, and also ensure that traceability through the supply chain. It really is an interesting part of the picture, right? So everyone knows, inherently, quote, unquote, sustainability is a good thing, right? Environmentally friendly going forward. The difficult part is, what's the definition of that? Right? Everyone's definition is different. That might be garments lasting longer, you know, in your closet, right? Versus the ingredients in that garment, right? So it, or it might just be, you know, like we focus on all of the above, correct, right? Doing the right thing in terms of get the most renewable resources and biomaterials possible in there, because we know that's better than non renewable resources. But that also, as Alexa said, needs to result in a better garment, right? So there's been a number of people that have tried, obviously, from the front end, with completely unsustainable items, correct? And that's going to work, because those are inherently available and accomplish what it's set out to do. But there's also been people that have gone to the other way. I mean, completely sustainable. The issue with those is, you know, they don't perform at the level that it needs to perform for. Ultimately, unfortunately, the end user to purchase those consistently, right, whether it's moisture wicking, you know, no offense to the natural fibers of the world. But you know, like hemp, you know, in linen, you know, no one wants to go on a run a 20 mile, 26 mile marathon in, you know, in him in HEMP clothing. So it's a, it's a fine balance which we which is really great, but, and that's key to Corona success, is really saying, you know, yes, we're more sustainable at every key juncture that needs to be improved upon. And even then we still need to continue improving on that side of it, but ultimately it needs to correlate and it needs to be led from a performance and attributes aspect, because that's what the consumer is telling you, that they're not going to sacrifice all of that stuff for Something that's 100% environmentally friendly at this point. Unfortunately.

WTiN: Of course, and you just touch about my next couple of questions. So could you go into bit more detail about Covation Bio’s manufacturing and sourcing processes, and how has the product grown, developed and been adopted by the industry? And obviously, you speak about it then like comparing it to those different materials out there, mean, normally performance, where we would be expecting to see stuff like polyester and elastin, which obviously we know are not sustainable, how is Sorano's product offering becoming on par with that in terms of performance? So there's a lot of questions there, but basically, if you could just explain that manufacturing and source in person, how it's been adopted by the industry.

Cole: Dure, I'll start there, and then Alexa can pick up where I am. But ultimately, yeah, so what we do is we make a partially bio-based polymer chip that we sell into the textile chain.

So we work with, you know, really cool partners, one of them being premium, one of them being a true Terra program that manages and looks into our farming system and the farmers that we're using the industrial dent corn from. Ultimately, what we do is we take industrial dent corn that's not made for human consumption. It's for industrial, obviously, purposes only, and we put it through a wet mill process. That wet mill process separates the glucose and the carbohydrates from the proteins.

In the olden days that that would be called the glucose, would be called a byproduct, I believe now we are required to call it a co product, but that basically is what considered at that point waste or needed to use for something else. So we take that from the that glucose from that wet milling process, and we use our joint venture partner premium to put it in these giant fermentation tanks, right 10 story steel tanks, where we add live microorganisms to the batch, and without getting too scientific, ultimately, what happens is out the other side comes what the chemical engineers will call a one, three propane dial a bio PDO.

That bio PDO is the building block for not only Sorona, but the other sister brands that Alexa touched on earlier in the podcast as well zamaya and sistera, the sister product is actually that one three propane dial. So what we do then in these in the corona world, is take it to our plant and.

Instant North Carolina, add terephthalic acid, TPA, and through that high pressurized process, you get a polymerized chip. So Corona, PTT, poly, trimethylene, that's what we sell into the chain, right? So where that works, and how that building block is, is, you know, that looks similar to a polyester chip. But the difference it being, at least right now, is that a polyester chip, which is PET, is 100% from non renewable resources, right? Petroleum based, fracked out of the earth, not a renewable regenerating resource, correct? So what Sorona does differently is that bio PDO makes up 37% of the new polymer. So what you can do there is already now 37% of a polyester type polymer without attributes, and all that is already coming from renewable resources. Okay, so that's why it's bio based, and then ultimately, down the road, you're talking about the other 63% and how you source that. So is it going to be petroleum source TPA, right now? Yes, that's the best option that makes it available to the market. Is there other options, like recycled TPA, or down the road bio based? TPA, absolutely, that should be everyone's goal in the future, to become as close to 100% bio based as possible. Again, though, without sacrificing the attributes of what it implies down down the chain.

WTiN: And Alex, is there anything that you would like to add to that?

Raab: No, I mean, I think Matthew touched on something that's interesting, is we this true terror program. I think was a really important choice that we made to partner with them. And I think part of that is, you know, sustainable agriculture is so important to the overall vision of our company, because it enables us to understand the farming practices of the industrial dent corn that we're using, right so I think we continue to think about this idea of transparency throughout our supply chain. And this was just another step in that, being able to meet farmers and talk to them about what they're doing and how, you know, the practices that have been established with the true terror program have enabled different regenerative agriculture at their farms. It's just really, it's, it's fascinating to me. There's so many different pockets and offerings and programs and people that are really excited about these opportunities to, you know, work in the industries and make it better the ones that they're touching. So I think there's just a lot of partners out there. And obviously kind of going off that like, so obviously, building a sustainable like, sorry, a transparent supply chain, developing biomaterials like you are that that you've got a big, big task, and you've spread across a lot of areas. Could you tell me, maybe, what have been some of the biggest challenges the company has had to overcome while developing the surrounding brand. I think, personally, one of the things that I continue to see is this whole idea of impacting the hearts and minds of our consumers. And I think Matthew touched on this too, is, you know, we have to make sure that anything that we are developing, no matter what polymer or what company you're working for that's developing these, these bio-based alternatives, is that we have to deliver on the performance that customers expect. Right? So that's great. However, this is where I really see the garment industry at odds, right? And this is when I talk about impacting the hearts and minds of customers. Is, you know, Abigail, there's this whole segment of the younger consumer that is really into fast fashion. And we see, you know, across these social media channels, so many of these influencers that are incentivized to do these clothing halls, right? And you then you get on, and you know you're talking about, this is what I bought, and I'll probably wear it a couple times. And some of these companies are ones that we know don't have the most sustainable practices. So for me, you know, especially as we think about this whole idea of a more circular economy, I think working with those consumers to help them understand buying less but maybe higher quality, really pays off in the long run. So I think that's part of it. And I know I'm getting a little philosophical, but I do think that that is a challenge that we will continue to face in the garment industry, get you know.

And I think another thing too specific to the Sorona brand is helping you know our value chain, understand what it is that we as Covation bio produces, right? So Matthew said it's that little chip, right? And I think that is something that's really interesting, because we will have people that say, where can I buy a serona dress, or, you know, I want to buy a Sirona x, and we have to say, well, you know, you need to look for brands that work, that use serona in their fabrics. So having that conversation and helping folks understand what it is that we actually do, and helping connect them with the brands that are using Sorona in their garments is something that, you know, I think it's been, and I wouldn't say challenging, but it is deserving of a conversation.

WTiN: And Matthew, what have been the challenges that you've had to overcome?

Cole: Yeah, no, eloquently put by Alexa.

I'll be a little bit more brass tacks and straightforward, because you've got both. But yeah, so ultimately, two things for us, really, and it seamlessly touches on Alexa what she's highlighting. But you know, obviously price and cost of goods when you do this, right, not just Sorona, but as soon as you put a label of sustainability or ecofriendly or higher quality, right? We all know this, right, so we offer a very high-quality product that's going to be more expensive than a generic commodity item. And so Alexa touched on it when it's fast fashion. You know, the difficult part for me is working with those large brands who have those large programs that we need to access. And they say we would love to have our largest program be a Sorona t shirt program, but we need to sell that T shirt for 899, and from the start to the end of the chain, that's just not possible for higher end, premium, sustainable ingredients to get there, whether it's recycled, whether it's bio based, it's just it's impossible, right? So we're in this very weird situation where you need to impact things on a large scale to eventually build up enough volume to where that price becomes lower and more accessible to smaller brands and larger programs, right? But it's hard which one's going to do it first. That's where I find that's the most trouble, is getting them to adopt those. Because knowing that if I adopt these now, in the future, the price will probably actually get better, because the volume is growing, right.

And then, so that's the main one. And not to just harp on price, but it's always going to be money centric when you're talking about this kind of stuff. And then secondly is, just as I mentioned, textiles so antiquated. It's, it's aligning that global chain, right? Like, let's be honest. You know, the supply chain is in Asia, the supply chain is in South and Central America. The supply chain is in India and Vietnam and Cambodia and Thailand. Like, the supply chain is just not on this side of the world, and it may never be that way. So really aligning someone from, you know, a brand from Dearborn, Michigan, with, you know, a fibber supplier that's in China, a fabric mill and yarn maker that's in Taiwan, a garment maker that's in Vietnam or Mexico or Honduras, and then getting them back product that launches in the US right aligning that entire chain, as you can imagine, just the sheer number of steps is difficult, because we haven't had a lot of That takeover that, let's say CPG has with the Cisco's or the Walmarts of the world, where someone comes in and goes, I'm going to buy the whole chain. I'm going to do everything, be vertically integrated, and then I'm going to cut a whole bunch of costs and make it affordable to the masses. The few people that have done that in textile the very few have actually gone opposite and done that, and then added cost and price to the chain, because they picked up every asset or aspect of that. So those are the two main difficulties I see on a day to day basis, of getting product to where it needs to go, and then getting product priced appropriately so that everyone can have access to it, to grow those volumes.

WTiN: In your opinion, how can brands and their supply chains work together for a better future, like you said, having that like bit like building that together, as you mentioned, it's really difficult when you have brands in one place and the manufacturers another. How, how can they work together? For a better future?

Cole: Yeah. I mean, the key really is, in this industry is, as old as it sounds, it is trade shows. A lot of trade shows right, where you can have one trip and get a lot of people in the same place. So we do, you know a ton of those globally, whether it's Intertextile in Shanghai, whether it's ISPO in Munich, whether it's the workwear show A plus A and Dusseldorf, whether it's the functional fabric fairs here three times a year in the US, that's the main way where they can all get on the same page see new stuff. But really, though it is. It's stuff like this, it's podcasts, it's social media channels. I mean, that's the designers and from the brands. I mean, that's what they're looking to right there. Everyone is a different experience. Has a different number of experiences in the market and in the supply chain, depending on that brand. Some brands send their designers all over the world to find trends mirror. You know, whether it's magazines or social media platforms, and then some don't have the resources to do that. So it's really, in this day and age, a mix and match of all of those things and well, it can be very difficult for us, right, bringing those together. So what we try to do is bring in products and garments and fabrics from all over the globe, when we're at these trade shows or at these conferences or summits, whatever it may be, and then we're sharing those new trends and with the industry as much as possible.

WTiN: Alexa, you mentioned that obviously Covation Bio works with different brands, and to get the material like get the surrounding material out there. What demand Do you see from brands for your products, and how does Covation Bio intend to make sustainable solutions accessible to these brands?

Raab: So I think one, I'm gonna, I'll break that down. So I think, firstly, one thing that you know, Matthew and I consistently hear is, you know, what's next, right? And what are, what are you doing? What's your next innovation? And I think part of what excites me in terms of the requests from brands are these new ways that they're thinking about using Sorona, you know, because we talked about all of the different uses and the product attributes. So we're seeing Sorona move into new spaces. I there's one company in India, wellspun, they're using it for home textiles. So, you know, Sorona has this tremendous softness, and, you know, they're using it for for sheets and for towels. So I think that's part of it.

WTiN: Do you have any new ideas? Are you seeing anybody use Sorona in different ways?

Raab: We had a brand in Japan that was using it for makeup brushes. So I think, you know, that's part of it, right? Is like, what are some new ways that we can use it? We know you can use it. Matthew touched on price. I also think something that is interesting is the idea of how we talk and share information with our peer companies. So whether it's, you know, cordora or lenzing or naia from Eastman, we work with them, even if it's just to participate together on panel discussions, or actually, we've even done, you know, some joint collaborations in terms of developing fabrics together. I think that is the kind of stuff that will really make an impact in the industry.

You know, I don't, I don't have the capacity to, you know, suggest we all work at the same mill, for instance, and, you know, utilize that that space to save costs. But I do think his conversation of us and them together and working together to develop fabrics or garments that are the best of both, right, and making them more accessible to a consumer. That's the kind of stuff that I think we need to see more of. Because, you know, if you have people like me and Matthew and our counterparts at some of these other companies talking always and consistently about, you know, why this is important at many of these, you know, conferences and seminars where we know some of these bigger brands are, I think that's the way that we'll continue to push the conversation, just through education and reinforcing the message that this isn't going away.

WTiN: Great. Thank you both. And there are so many initiatives coming out, and there are different companies doing many different things that obviously you mentioned, like lenzing and naia from Eastman, who also very sustainable minded with bio materials and. Bio based textile solutions gaining momentum in recent years. How have you seen the landscape for sustainable solutions develop? I don't know who wants to take that one.

Cole: Yeah, I can start really quick. I mean, it certainly is. The majority of these brands, you know, they kind of interact and follow each other, and they're following the market, some faster than others, right? So, certainly, it's no secret, right, that government also plays a big part in this. So your Europe is Europe, when it comes to this type of stuff, is very much advanced because of the requirements coming down for them to be at a certain level, for all things, garment related, fabric related, things like that. So that's the one hard part to put your finger on, because there's so much that's involved in tariffs and importing and exporting and taxes and fees and then government regulation or lack thereof government regulation. So it can be that part, that part can be very difficult, but on the whole, I mean, most of the brands have this understanding, and you see the trends and the evolution unfolding. It's just a matter of when, not if, right? So when, before it was we we hit COVID, and as COVID was happening and coming out of COVID, the the big trend was certainly recycled, using recycled poly was massive, right? And then we've, we've gone through four or five years of that being very popular, and now we see the brands even more saying we understand that recycled is better than what we had, but we also understand that recycled is a reused product, so the quality, inherently, is going to be less than a virgin product, and it's more steps, so it's going to cost more, right? So inherently, that's not good for business. You don't want to pay more for a product that has less quality than the original version, that's cheaper, right? That no one that's not sustainable in the long-term run of business. So that will continue to elevate discussions and bring people to the topic. But ultimately, this is what's great for us. Is now, over the last year or two, post COVID, we've seen this evolution to, hey, we understand recycled. We're still going to be using recycled, but we now need to look three, 510, years into the future, and we know that bio based is coming, and that's the next trend. We need to be ahead of, instead of during or behind, like we were with, with recycled and some other things.

WTiN: That's really interesting. Alexa, is there anything that you would like to add to that?

Raab: Yeah, I mean, I think in addition to what Matthew is talking about, I think there's also two big things that I have noticed over, you know, the past five years. I think one is this better education at the consumer level. So I think, you know, even just for me, when I see certain things. And of course, I know I come at it from a different perspective, but you know, you'll see some of these claims, right? And, oh, we have this. And you know, whatever it might be I am now, and I don't know if it's because we work on life cycle assessments or what it is, but you know, you make a claim, and then I think to myself, well, that's great, but you know, how much water are you using, or what are your admissions if you're shipping it all over the world like, I feel like everybody is starting to ask these more holistic questions about what's happening and the promises that you're making with a garment or with a product, whatever it might be. I think there's more understanding of the potential for greenwashing, um, you know, I think it's funny, there were there a couple years ago. I remember seeing a skirt and it said vegan leather. And I remember, like, you know, is that a mass market retailer? And I was like, vegan leather, you know? Well, what's that about? You know, just plastic, right? So it's like, something like that, right? It's like, okay, yeah, it might be vegan leather, but it's plastic, right? So then you start to think about that. So I think, you know, again, this education at the consumer level. I also think something else that we're seeing at all different companies is the idea of creating sustainability goals at the company level, right? And I think no matter what the size of the company at this point, I think, you know, they want to align themselves with the goals of the United Nations. And you know, personally, we have goals at Covation Bio. But even, you know, a lot of these larger brands are doing it too, but this the smaller brands are. So I think everybody wants to contribute. I think the level of understanding of what it takes to really make an impact is different. You know, that's definitely something that I think we've seen a lot of you know, everybody wanting to partake in the conversation.

WTiN: Yeah, that is really interesting, and it's something that we hear a lot more about that.

Raab: Consumer awareness that is that just seems to be growing. No, I mean, I think here's, here's one other thing too, and then I promise I'll, I'll stop my lecture. But, you know, I remember during COVID, I was lucky that my, you know, Covation Bio sponsored me to do a sustainability graduate certificate, and part of what I understood was the whole idea of, you know, ESG investing. So I think that's another thing too, right? Is people are really making an impact with their wallet, as they say, you know? So it's not just consumers, and, you know, customers purchasing more sustainable garments. It's also this idea of, you know, investment bankers and all the people with the big money wanting to make more ethical choices in terms of where they put their money. So I think that's another thing too. And I honestly like, I feel like that's another part of how we could really make a difference, because these are some of the big decision makers in the world.

WTiN: Iust kind of and like looking towards the future, is there anything in the pipeline that Covation Bio is working on that you're allowed to tell me about today?

Cole: The lab scale stuff we can create? So really, though it touches the polymer, right? So we're definitely, we're allowed to, I mean, we've been working on it for a while, and that should be, you know, every, like I said earlier in the podcast, everyone's goal, right, is to increase the bio based content. Every brand asks us, okay, great, we've used Sorona for a couple years now. Like, when can we get a higher bio based content. And again, understanding that it's not as simple as well. You have bio P do, just add more bio P do, chemically. That doesn't it just doesn't work like that, right? So again, like I talked about earlier, it changing the sourcing of that, which we know is lab available, right? So we can produce it in a lab, which is great. So the concept is possible and producible, but let's say now it's 20x the price or 15x the price, so it's not market acceptable. So those are the things we're constantly working on that. But the good news is, I don't know when, but someday that that will definitely happen, whether it's a recycle TPA or that. But then I, like Alexa said, So what's really new, though, is then you you trying to change things within the thing, within our current offerings, whether that's going into new categories, right? So the biggest one for us is putting stretch into workwear categories like Snickers, like, like those Canvas, you know, non stretch, you know, pants that were for construction workers labor. So, like, inherently, there's never been stretch in that category, right. And now everybody wants comfort stretch. So the easiest thing was to go to an amazing brand like Snickers for our through our European team and making it high vis safety and doing all of that work, and then now, all of a sudden, you know, they're like, oh, wow, we can get this stretch without spandex, right? So those are the two avenues you take, changing the polymer, and then changing where we're going. And then there's always going to be some pot along the way, where we have a great our technical team, as you can imagine, those former DuPont legacy guys that came with us that are, you know, you can't every PhD possible in printing, dying, spinning, finishing them, always looking at different things, whether it's taking the new the old fiber and making it hollow, taking the by component we already have, and changing when and where you dye it in the process, to do Different things to give it more stretch, less stretch. So lots of cool stuff like that always coming down the pipe. But really the two focuses is, is really changing the polymer into a more bio into a higher bio based level. That's always the overlying goal here, as we grow the business, and that only becomes more accessible as Corona continues to gain popularity and continues to grow in both the apparel, the home textile, the automotive, the carpet world. I mean, we're growing in all these in all these worlds and all these different facets, since Corona is so versatile and can be used in so many different ways.

WTiN: Thank you so much. That sounds really interesting, and I'm sure there will be lots more in the future to speak about. And then my final question, I hope this is a bit more fun as well. But could you tell me what you think the future of bio-based materials is? What did it look like in the textile industry? Yeah. Alexa, you want to go first?

Raab: Yeah, sure. Um, that's a really tough question. Oh, I think about, you know, the future, right? And, like, what do I what would be my dream, right? And I think part of it is taking these different segments. So, like, I think about athleisure, right? Like, athleisure has this ability now to be worn on the street, but then also, I could sit at my office in joggers, and nobody even bats an eye, right? So it's these, like multi-faceted garments, but I would almost like push it to enable some kind of technology, you know, like ones that maybe anticipate and who knows. I don't know how they would do this, but this is why there are these incredible scientists out there. You know, maybe, like, with the push of a button, like this garment, this bio-based garment, starts cooling me off after a run, or, you know, anticipates that I'm going to need a little bit more stretch, but it's the same garment, right? So, like, I don't know, like, I think I'd love to see more intersection between sustainability and technology and like, using the demands from a unique consumer to tailor those garments to, like, answer those calls. So that's, that's kind of like, where my brain is. I'm like, it's got to be something related to data or technology, absolutely. To quote one of the projects we worked on with one of our good partners, called thin down.

Cole: It's where science meets nature, and that really is the future of bio-based product, because bio-based availability is there. But again, to echo what we've talked about, it doesn't mean anything, and it's not impactful if it doesn't achieve what the consumer needs it to achieve based on that category. But really it is. I mean, the future is bright in terms of that. It's everyone's going there, like every brand, for the most part, is going to have lines or multiple lines, that they're promoting, that are that are using bio-based materials. So Alexa talked about a little bit about the company values and their intrinsic goals, and certainly we found that so a lot of the larger big box brands, it depends what they pick, right? But are they going to say we need to have 50% bio-based products, 80% bio based products, or is it going to is it going to be dwindled down all the way to, hey, every fabric we push in this program needs to be a minimum of 20% bio based ingredients, right? So again, this, the giving it a definition and how it works for each brand is always going to be different, but it's going to be there in some facet. And that's, that's the real, true goal, to see, you know, the oldest brands that you can imagine, that are the slowest moving and have been around forever, right? Like they still have, they still have this understanding it might take them 10 years, versus the wonderful, flexible, small brands that can just, you know, pick new fabrics every, every 12 to 18 months, but that that's ultimately the future of bio bases. When, when the nature part of this meets the science, that's what makes it work so and, and that's really what Alexa is talking about too, is when that all works together, then Bio Base is not going to be in if it's just going to be a win and what's next?

WTiN: A lot to think about there and very exciting future. Thank you both so much for coming on the WTiN text on innovation podcast that's been that's been great.

Raab: Thank you so much.

Cole: Thank you. Yeah, it's our pleasure. Thank you for having us.

WTiN: Thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions, you can reach out over X formally, Twitter at WTiN, comment or contact me directly at Abby underscore WTiN, if you are interested in sponsoring an episode of the podcast, please email sales at WTiN.com thank you for listening. I will see you next month.